Yellow Flat Coats? Controversial

FCRs are not the breed for the vast majority of people...they are exceptionally intelligent, thinkers and problem solvers. They are people dogs and want to be with you all the time and participate in everything that you do...they are high energy and will only do something if they think it was their idea in the first place! So no...not ideal for everyone...but absolutely amazing dogs. Brilliant, wonderful and beautiful.

WOW! ok so i just went through this entire thread... yikes! It makes me very sad i am NOT across the pond from this breeder of "designer" dogs. I cant believe they use the term hybrid. crossingbred dogs are not hybrid's they are not different species, they are not healthier, they are not better. You, miss Chatham Hill, are only adding to the 4-5 MILLION dogs put to sleep in your country every year. if you dont have a respectable, responsable purpose for breeding, you need to stop. I am involved in rescuing dogs, and I now have 3 American dogs because there is not enough homes for perfectly good dogs in your country, so why add to it? Your not breeding for the betterment of the breed, no breed clubs would condone what you are doing. So you think your better than every one else? know more than every one of the breed experts?

People who breed designer dogs just jack up the prices of dogs, and put "mutts" in shelters... Your dogs would just end up in shelters as retreiver crosses, or spaniel crosses, like the labradoodle that got adopted from the local SPCA here as an irish wolfhound mix, or the puggle that was listed as a pug mix... they are mixed breeds, nothing wrong with mutts, i have 3 but call it like it is, and dont add to the problems that shelters are having.

Sorry I had to get in a word!

got them down to a tee

Yet they still get one over on me on a daily, if not hourly basis....

I cannot imagine my life without a FCR in it now.

haha try being at my work where 6 of them get one over on me daily... no i would love a flat coat, i miss them when im not at work, havent been there for a couple of weeks and i couldnt wait to get back and see them all!

You would if Chatham Hill had anything to do with the breeding side lol but hey they would be super healthy

AND live forever!!!

Haha Forgot about that Super Duper lol

My apologies in advance for any ruffled feathers to follow, But I've been told offline by a couple of your very own members who've been bullied by this same crew for loving their own hybrids or for championing the same logical thinking the rest of the world is currently on board with and unanimously laughing at you about the status quo's old news logic and denial over the issues their practices brought on our beloved dogs...

Well, I kindly backed out of the fray to see who would indeed volunteer any information on how they are actually doing anything positive for their dogs…. And in 4 pages of dialogue without me there, all that happened was more ASSumptions made about me from people who never met me, Don’t know me from a hole in the wall and yet somehow think they know everything about me and keep putting that out there instead of trying their best to provide some insight to how they plan to fix the mess created. If disparaging an invidual through a blog by virtual bullying is the best you can offer then its clear there’s going to be no insight provided here on topic to the EDUCATED public that may come here looking for the answers the status quo seems to be unable to provide. (SNICKERS)

Aside from Aereola who happens to come back with quips based on her knowledge which was gathered from her circle of friends with generations worth of doing things via the methods practiced by the status quo. At least some of her information was correct. Like Sudden rage being a problem in specific lines. But sadly she’s still preaching the old news from the establishment that’s been at this game for almost a century or more, since careful attention to this problem has virtually eliminated it on my side of the pond, if its still over there with you….well that’s too bad, maybe you should check those breeding practices(Chuckles). vIf you believe your friends, well… On my side of the pond that’s called a serious case of brainwashed.

Or perhaps you can offer some insight into why the Golden Retriever is now the number 3 Biter in Canada and the number 4 Biter in the USA, perhaps is sudden rage?? LOL

FACTOID: The Occurrence of Yellow in the FCR is as common as it is in the Labrador. If you choose to breed away from this color then it becomes a rarity through human intervention. But, even the foundation stock of dogs used to create the FCR were in fact Black or Liver or Yellow dogs. Zelstone himself was a Black FCR from Red and Liver Lines. And Nous fron the Goldens side of the equation is a Yellow from Black and Yellow contributions from FCR . These dogs were prolific studs and fathered hundreds of litters, And their progeny also fathered hundreds of litters. And so on and so on. AND ALONG THE WAY THEY WERE BRED BACK TO THEIR OFFSPRING, AND COUSINS AND AUNTS AND GRANDPARENTS and SIBLINGS. To deny it based on century old tales makes you look…. Brainwashed. And to tell others that Yellow is not common is just a lie. Or perhaps what you feel is the truth based on information handed down over the generations from the status quo. Well in modern times all I can say…. GOOD LUCK telling that story.

So what the majority public have learned is the “click” that rules this sandbox and bullies the rest of those who come to play in it are the same all around. You’ve effectively buried very helpful information with pages of nonsense. So here I am going to put a bit of common sense and logic and science back in your faces and again give you an opportunity to tell the public just what you and yours have done to change things from the mess it is now to something better in the future.

You already know what I’m doing, yet you seem to translate it in whatever way bolsters your argument. However when faced with the same questions yourself there might as well be crickets chirping from your side of the debate.
Your very own Kennel Club provides all of this information. (Chuckles)

I’ll cut and Paste from a well-written Blog I follow. Have a good read.

The story of Kennel Club dogs is pretty much the same from one breed to the next:

1. A relatively small numbers of dogs are brought into the Kennel Club;

2. The registry is closed so no new genetic material can find its way in;

3. The show ring selection system results in a relatively small number of dominant (ribbon-winning) sires being elevated in the gene pool;

4. The breed splits due to differences between types (coat color, size, lay of the ear), further reducing the already-small gene pool;

5. An extremely condensed gene pool (10,000 dogs may have the genetic diversity of 50) means that negative recessive genes are able to easily find each other and double down within a litter, resulting in offspring with disease or deformity.


With any Kennel Club breed, the only three variables in this story are:

1. The genetic quality of the dogs in the original Kennel Club pool;

2. The length of time the dogs are in the Kennel Club, and;

3. The degree to which the breed standard calls for negative morphological selection.


The genetic quality of the original Kennel Club pool is obviously important, but it cannot provide salvation, for even a pool of dogs without negative genetic traits is doomed under a closed registry and show-ring selection system.

The reason for this is the pairing of two phenomenon called genetic mutation and genetic drift.

Most genetic mutations are recessive, and remain unseen and unexpressed in the form of visible defect. In a large and "wild" population of animals most of these negative genes will "drift" out of the population just as they drifted in.

In a closed registry system with a relatively small number of dogs, however, negative recessive genes can quickly find each other and spread through the population -- especially if they are passed on by a show-winning sire with many offspring.

The result is a rapidly rising level of "spontaneous" disease and deformity out of what was once thought of as a "healthy" population of animals.

Time is a variable in the Kennel Club destruction process for the simple reason that some breeds have not been in the Club long enough to be completely wrecked.

It takes time (about 50 years in practice) for a small, but diverse population to become inbred to the point that recessive genes start to dominate, resulting in a noticeable increase in infecundity, mortality, deformity and disease.

Negative morphological selection is the third variable, and the easiest to see because it is so extreme and so overt.

Negative morphological selection is simply the practice of show ring breeders and Kennel Club standard writers to positively select for negative health traits.

These negative health traits include (but are not limited to) extreme size (very small dogs or very large dogs), dwarfism, bizarre hip angulations, overly wrinkled skin, flat faces, massive heads, and the elevation of certain coat colors (such as merle) and eye colors (blue) which are linked to deafness.

Contrary to what some folks think, the history and health problems of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, the German Shepherd, the Pug, and the Rhodesian Ridgeback, to name a few of the dogs shown in the BBC special Pedigree Dogs Exposed, are not unusual -- only the degree to which they are easily visible to the naked eye.

Nor is a genetic bottle neck within a breed unusual in the Kennel Club. In fact, it is what the entire system is designed to do. Hence the name: "pure breed."

Genetic diversity is the opposite of what the Kennel Club wants -- what they want is "conformity" to a beauty show standard. Hence the name "conformation show."


Overall, The Kennel Club reports that of the 36,006 dogs surveyed, 37.4% had at least one reported health condition, and that the average age of the dogs surveyed was just five years.

Of the health problems reported, 14.4% were reproductive (Pyometra, false pregnancy, dystochia, infertility, cryptorchid, irregular heats), 12.9% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, cruciate ligament injury, hip dysplasia, patellar luxation), 10.5% were dermatologic, and 9.6 were ocular (cataract, entropion, corneal ulcer, epiphora, KCS, cherry eye, distichiasis).

And to repeat: Nearly 40 percent of dogs had one more or more health problems even though the average age of the dogs in question was only 5 years old!

Scottish Terrier - Terrier Group

• The median age at death for Scottish Terriers was 10 years and 3 months.

• More than 47.5% of deaths were from cancer.

• In a dog population with a median age of 4 years and 11 months, 46% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these conditions, 28.3% were issues or reproduction (dystochia, infertility; infertility; pyometra; agalactia; vaginitis), 15% were dermatological, and 11% were respiratory.

The Flat-coated Retriever - Gundog Group
• The median age at death for Flatcoated Retrievers was 9 years and 10 months.

• More than 54% of deaths were from cancer.

• In a dog population with a median age of 5 years, 41% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these, 15.2% were musculoskeletal (arthritis; patellar luxation; lameness, dysplasia, spondylitis), 13.1% were benign neoplasia(lipoma; histiocytoma; cysts; fibroma; granuloma), 12.0% were reproductive (false pregnancy; pyometra; irregular heat cycles; dystochia), 9.8% were dermatological, 8.3% were gastrointestinal (bloat, colitis; foreign body obstruction; pancreatitis), and 7.8% were ocular (distichiasis, goniodysgenesis, entropion, glaucoma).

Bernese Mountain Dog - Working Group
• The median age at death for Bernese Mountain Dogs was 8 years.

• More than 45% of deaths were from cancer.

• In a dog population with a median age of 4 years, 46% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these, 31.5% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, dysplasia), 13.9% were reproductive (pyometra; false pregnancy; dystochia, infertility), 9.4% were dermatological, 8.4% were gastrointestinal, and 6.4% were ocular.


Deerhound - Hound Group
• The median age at death for Deerhounds was 8 years and 8 months.

• More than 24% of deaths were from cardiac problem, with cancer accounting for an additional 18.8% of deaths.
•
•
• In a dog population with a median age of 4 years and 2 months, 32% of dogs had at least one reported health condition. Of these, 17.5% were reproductive (pyometra, vaginitis, dystochia), 14.8% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, dysplasia), 13.2% were gastrointestinal (bloat, diarrhoea), and 10% were respiratory.

Border Collie - Pastoral Group

• The median age at death for Border Collies was 12 years and 3 months.
•
•
• More than 23% of deaths were from cancer. Another 9.4% were from strokes, and 6.6% from cardiac issues.

• In a dog population with a median age of 5 years, 29% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these 18.6% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, lamenes, dysplasia), 14% were reproductive (dystochia, false pregnancy, cryptorchid), 11.6% were respiratory, 8.7% were dermatological.

British Bulldog - Utility Group

• The median age at death for Bulldogs was 6 years and 3 months.

• More than 20% of deaths were from cardiac issues, with an additional 18.3% from cancer, 4.4% from respiratory failure, and 4.4% from strokes.

• In a dog population with a median age of 3 years and 1 month, 46% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these, 31.6% were ocular (cherry eye, entropion, dry eye, corneal ulcer), 15.2% were dermatological, 10.8% were reproductive (dystochia, infertility, false pregnancy, cryptorchid, pyometra), 10.4% were respiratory, 9.2% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, lameness, dysplasia, patellar luxation).


Pekingese - Toy Group

• The median age at death for Pekingese was 11 years and 5 months.

• More than 23% of deaths were from cardiac issues, and another 9% were from neurological issues.

• In a dog population with a median age of 5 years, 37% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these 20.4% were issues or reproduction (infertility; false pregnancy; cryptorchid; agalactia; eclipse; mastitis; pyometra), 13.9% were neurologic (intervertebral disc disease, deafness), 11.1% were dermatological, 10.2% were respiratory, 8.3% were ocular, and 7.4% were cardiac.

Clearly, different breeds have different health issues, but just as clearly, none of the breeds listed can be said to be problem free.

In fact, the breeds listed above, are so often fraught with problems that they would be subject to massive class action litigation and product recalls if they were a manufactured commodity.

So how does the Kennel Club get away with a business plan that guarantees that most dogs sold "with papers" will die sooner and have more expensive health conditions than most run-of-the-mill mutts?

The answer can be found in the all-absolving language to be found on The Kennel Club's web site which says that:


"The Kennel Club makes no warranty as to the quality or fitness of any puppies offered for sale and can accept no responsibility for any transaction between purchaser and vendor arising from publication of the listing."

In short, the Kennel Club offers no warranty and accepts no responsibility for the genetic wreckage you may be about to buy.

Good luck, and you're on your own.

And don't let us know if it doesn't work out!

ROTFLMAO

Now anyone interested in rambling on and on and not telling the curious public what they've done to reverse this mess??? We're all Dying to hear what you have to say.

Or you can banter on for a few pages and disappoint us again with the romantic myths taught from within that circle of friends called the dog fancy...

(SNICKER)

Hmm.
I don't know why you are just talking about the UK kennel club, because yet again, you have headed to the hills and come back and you still actually haven't said anything very much.
This is not a debate about the KC and what they have or have not done.
This is about yellow FCRs. It is about the fact that yellow, as a colour, is a fault. It is about the fact that you breed specifically to encourage that colour and about the fact that you also specifically breed a cross breed dog froma breed who I have actually yet to hear you say anything pleasant about.:twisted:

What am I doing?
What have I done?

Pre getting my FCRs, I researched, researched and researched a little bit more...then I carried on researching. I spoke to lots of people in the breed, people who were honest, open and above board...and exceptionally helpful. People who LOVE this breed of dog and who are working hard to make sure any health problems are sorted. Breeders, who research the lines of any stud they are going to use exceptionally carefully, who research any bitch their dog may cover exceptionally carefully. Of course I was aware of cancer in the breed...so I made sure I went to someone who had happy, healthy, older dogs. Who could tell me about her past dogs. Who would talk to me openly about the cancer that breaks the heart of those people who have a dog who suffer with it.
My dog did not come with a guarantee...what he did come with was a family history that is as good as I could get it to be. He also came with the joie de vivre that is a Flat Coat, so if he does die early...well....at least I know he will have lived EVERY day of his life to the absolute full. He is the happiest living being I have ever had the pleasure to spend time with...again...good breeding.

My girl? She is a rescue...from FCR rescue. You know there are FCRs in rescue right? There are FCRs out there that need homes? Beautiful ones...well behaved ones...dogs in there here and now who have no home. (I ask because of course they are ideal for the 'pet' market which you are so keen to supply.)
The good FCR breeders are passionate about the breed. Let me tell you a story. Some FCRs were in a cruelty case (unfortunately the breed is becoming more popular and that attracts disreputable people who only want to sell to the pet market and make money)...some of those dogs turned up in a general rescue centre...and a FCR breeder (excellent one) became aware of it.) She made others aware of it...and there was pressure put on the general rescue to let the dogs go to breed rescue...they wouldn't. Within 3 days, those dogs were rehomed to experienced FCR homes and are doing well. People went out of their way to help and that is something people do all the time. As soon as a FCR goes missing, it is posted all over the FCR boards etc, [System edit: Contains pet groups] pages, emails...people care. That's actually one of the biggest things about the FCR breeders (when I say that I mean the decent ones) here...they care.

What else have I done? I have ensured when my rescue bitch had a tumour removed earlier this year (she is 6) that it was sent to Cambridge (which involved a little extra work for my vet but again, my vets are amazing),along with a blood sample and a copy of her pedigree (which was sent by rescue I don't have it). The tumour survey into FCRs in this country is one of the only ones of it's kind into a breed in the world. THAT is what decent people in FCRs are doing for the breed. They are finding out why...and trying to find a soloution armed with the FACTS. I have tried to spread word about the survey with other owners of the breed and with large assistance dog charities that use FCRs in the breeding programmes. This research is VITAL because it is already giving clear pictures about what is going on.

Look....
http://www.flatcoated-retriever-society.org/images/stories/health/tumour2010.pdf

You know...sadly, yes FCRs can be prone to cancer...but they are not all dropping dead at a really young age from it, the average age is 8 and there is (I believe) another peak at about 10. Yes, still young, but not as young as you are trying to suggest. Thankfully...not all the cancers lead to the death of the dog. My bitches tumour was indeed malignant, but had a benign edge so was removed in it's entirity and she is doing just fine. So whilst the tumours may occur, it is not necessarily a death sentence.

Decent FCR breeders in this country stay one step ahead of the ball with health related issues.

What else do I do? I try to raise awareness and I try to help in the best way I can.

So I ask again Chatham Hill.
What do YOU do. What is it that YOU do that is helping the breed rid itself of cancer. What research are you doing, what evidence are you compiling. Where are your statistics that will tell me that yellow FCRs are healthier and live longer than their black or liver counterparts...please show me as I would love to hear that they are and that that could be used to help the breed. How many yellows have you bred? HOw old are they? How old were they when they died? What did they die of? Did all dogs undergo a PM so that it is clear what they died of? Have you helped the American Flat Coats Society with any of their research..have you filled this in?
http://database.flatcoat.us/
Do you pass this information onto your puppy 'clients'
http://www.fcrsainc.org/health/youcanhelp.html

I have 'played' your game...now it's your turn.

You can't have it both ways, you keep referring to the roots of the FCR, and how it was put together from other breed types as an attempt to justify your particular breeding programme, and then saying you're breeding healthier dogs by hybridising using these breeds, when all you're doing is reintroducing the same type of genetics from the origins of the breed, which is already in there??

I'd suggest the golden retriever, and possibly the Labrador are victims of popularity as the highest number of biters. Their success as pets, leaves them open to abuse by being bred for cash, where dogs are used and produced with poor temperament. Because of the high number of these dogs being bred, you will get higher numbers of bites, simple really.

Whats with the "snickers?" They are chocolate bars arent they?

Firstly , I am pleased you have found some support for your breeding practices here on Dogsey, it shows how diverse our community is.

Secondly, not sure why you are taking every opportunity to have a go at the KC, you obviously have a personal gripe with it, or maybe you are just using tactics to shift attention from yourself.

Which by the way, you volunteered to this board,

The topic was about yellow flat coats, which was going quite well, until you decided to educated up in your re=written history of its and other breeds.

For someone who is so concerned and working to eradicate health issues in your breed, there is not a single mention on your site (unless I missed it) about health tests you have done on your breeding stock.

Can you please give us this information, it would certainly back up your claim of breeding to a healthier dog.

You Chatham Hill retrievers..... what level of inbreeding have you done to achieve your F3???

What health tests have you done on your F2`s /3`s.

Are you out crossing them to other breeders Chatham Hill.
retrievers, :? to widen the gene pool, or are you gridlocking your breeding programme., a little more info on your site (pedigrees) would help to establish that.


I think you will find that statistics showing the Goldie as a biter will be more to the fact, they are extremely common (numerically) and as always , the more that is bred, the more they are in demand, the more people jump on the bandwagon and breed, regardless of experience.

A well bred Goldie is not more likely to bite than any other well bred dog, its all down to who is doing the breeding.

You make claims, that your Chatiies shed less because one parent dog does nto have an undercoat.

Even your supporters here would have to raise an eyebrow at that.


On closer look at your Chatties, I have noticed the conformation of a couple of the dogs feet is poor, one or two have extremely flat feet surely you can understand the impact it may have on said dogs and their offsprings in the future, will you cull these from your breeding programme.

Because surely you will take into account conformation along with other issues in breeding healthy pets.

What am I doing to help my breed, well as I dont breed, then sadly not a lot, other than keeping up with all the research on my breed, informing anyone who shows an interest in my breed, what to ask, where to go in their search for a healthy pup.

We have some very knowledgeable people in out breed who are working tirelessly to eradicate any genetic problems that show up.

Dr Cattanach (you have heard of him) is to be commended in the time and work he puts into our breed,

With him on the case along with help, hopefully we will eventually have a DNA test to pinpoint the disease.

My tiny little bit in this, is passing on all the information published to date onto my vet.

So,as Ramble says, its your turn, convince us you are doing "something" to eradicate ill health in your breed.

You dont have to ofcause, but then you did not have to come here and inform us of your breeding practices.

But then if you dont answer the questions that have been put to you since you joined this debate, you cant complain , when we make our own minds up on what you have put up for public view...on here and your website.

Snickers and chuckles...........it Mutley

1. The question was posed to you.
2. Outcrossing does far more for a diminished gene pool than further researching inbred lines
3. The foundation stock is the template for future generations so to not WANT to acknowledge that is ignorance.
4. ASSuming the road to any outcrossing efforts end with a 2 dog mix is really narrow minded.
5. I have 5 lines of FCR and 4 lines of Cockers and a COI of 0% through 8 generations and 12 generations depending on the specimen and the planned pairings.
6. We are currently on an F2b part of the equation in the first phase of outcrosses.
7. The choices are being researched for other additions to the formula for a phenotype that is FCR.
8. With a goal of taking the final results as a backcross to the FCR.
9. Time being linear measure, we can only see in a few decades and compare results to the existing population of FCR.
10. And we're not eliminating a segment of healthy dogs from the equation based on COLOR.

If the trend continues... We will be far better of than what the current pool is offering. With a higher than average MHC genetic factor.

Now. Researching your lines back beyond 10, 12 or more generations can be very disappointing for you. Especially with FCR. We health test prior to the 2 year status quo and we do it to measure our progress.


Now, since none of you breed, tell us what you've done besides take the word of your sources that your dog is healthy. We're dying to hear. And again repeating in a vernacular you and your seem to understand ( chuckles)

I guess you also don't read through everything, because as posted... Conformation goes against to concept of diversity. Simmer on that concept and again tell us how you maintain health as a priority when your needs for conformation keep getting in your way.

We know how that went for the royal families.... Thus outcrossing with commoners helped them(snickers). Now tell us how a eugenics concept practiced by Hitler and now the Kennel Clubs is helping. Again we're all anxious for that twist and spin. ;-)

Please keep in mind the cross section of dogs used for the figures given prior are only 5 year old dogs. So if we were to include the remaining population then the numbers get staggeringly worse..... And take note of the KC disclaimer.


Now

What are you doing?

You have come back on and said nothing new... I asked specific question to you after answering yours......how about you answer them.

No Rambler, it's more like you only read what you want. Now you answer.


My apologies in advance for any ruffled feathers to follow, But I've been told offline by a couple of your very own members who've been bullied by this same crew for loving their own hybrids or for championing the same logical thinking the rest of the world is currently on board with and unanimously laughing at you about the status quo's old news logic and denial over the issues their practices brought on our beloved dogs...

Well, I kindly backed out of the fray to see who would indeed volunteer any information on how they are actually doing anything positive for their dogs…. And in 4 pages of dialogue without me there, all that happened was more ASSumptions made about me from people who never met me, Don’t know me from a hole in the wall and yet somehow think they know everything about me and keep putting that out there instead of trying their best to provide some insight to how they plan to fix the mess created. If disparaging an invidual through a blog by virtual bullying is the best you can offer then its clear there’s going to be no insight provided here on topic to the EDUCATED public that may come here looking for the answers the status quo seems to be unable to provide. (SNICKERS)

Aside from Aereola who happens to come back with quips based on her knowledge which was gathered from her circle of friends with generations worth of doing things via the methods practiced by the status quo. At least some of her information was correct. Like Sudden rage being a problem in specific lines. But sadly she’s still preaching the old news from the establishment that’s been at this game for almost a century or more, since careful attention to this problem has virtually eliminated it on my side of the pond, if its still over there with you….well that’s too bad, maybe you should check those breeding practices(Chuckles). vIf you believe your friends, well… On my side of the pond that’s called a serious case of brainwashed.

Or perhaps you can offer some insight into why the Golden Retriever is now the number 3 Biter in Canada and the number 4 Biter in the USA, perhaps is sudden rage?? LOL

FACTOID: The Occurrence of Yellow in the FCR is as common as it is in the Labrador. If you choose to breed away from this color then it becomes a rarity through human intervention. But, even the foundation stock of dogs used to create the FCR were in fact Black or Liver or Yellow dogs. Zelstone himself was a Black FCR from Red and Liver Lines. And Nous fron the Goldens side of the equation is a Yellow from Black and Yellow contributions from FCR . These dogs were prolific studs and fathered hundreds of litters, And their progeny also fathered hundreds of litters. And so on and so on. AND ALONG THE WAY THEY WERE BRED BACK TO THEIR OFFSPRING, AND COUSINS AND AUNTS AND GRANDPARENTS and SIBLINGS. To deny it based on century old tales makes you look…. Brainwashed. And to tell others that Yellow is not common is just a lie. Or perhaps what you feel is the truth based on information handed down over the generations from the status quo. Well in modern times all I can say…. GOOD LUCK telling that story.

So what the majority public have learned is the “click” that rules this sandbox and bullies the rest of those who come to play in it are the same all around. You’ve effectively buried very helpful information with pages of nonsense. So here I am going to put a bit of common sense and logic and science back in your faces and again give you an opportunity to tell the public just what you and yours have done to change things from the mess it is now to something better in the future.

You already know what I’m doing, yet you seem to translate it in whatever way bolsters your argument. However when faced with the same questions yourself there might as well be crickets chirping from your side of the debate.
Your very own Kennel Club provides all of this information. (Chuckles)

I’ll cut and Paste from a well-written Blog I follow. Have a good read.

The story of Kennel Club dogs is pretty much the same from one breed to the next:

1. A relatively small numbers of dogs are brought into the Kennel Club;

2. The registry is closed so no new genetic material can find its way in;

3. The show ring selection system results in a relatively small number of dominant (ribbon-winning) sires being elevated in the gene pool;

4. The breed splits due to differences between types (coat color, size, lay of the ear), further reducing the already-small gene pool;

5. An extremely condensed gene pool (10,000 dogs may have the genetic diversity of 50) means that negative recessive genes are able to easily find each other and double down within a litter, resulting in offspring with disease or deformity.


With any Kennel Club breed, the only three variables in this story are:

1. The genetic quality of the dogs in the original Kennel Club pool;

2. The length of time the dogs are in the Kennel Club, and;

3. The degree to which the breed standard calls for negative morphological selection.


The genetic quality of the original Kennel Club pool is obviously important, but it cannot provide salvation, for even a pool of dogs without negative genetic traits is doomed under a closed registry and show-ring selection system.

The reason for this is the pairing of two phenomenon called genetic mutation and genetic drift.

Most genetic mutations are recessive, and remain unseen and unexpressed in the form of visible defect. In a large and "wild" population of animals most of these negative genes will "drift" out of the population just as they drifted in.

In a closed registry system with a relatively small number of dogs, however, negative recessive genes can quickly find each other and spread through the population -- especially if they are passed on by a show-winning sire with many offspring.

The result is a rapidly rising level of "spontaneous" disease and deformity out of what was once thought of as a "healthy" population of animals.

Time is a variable in the Kennel Club destruction process for the simple reason that some breeds have not been in the Club long enough to be completely wrecked.

It takes time (about 50 years in practice) for a small, but diverse population to become inbred to the point that recessive genes start to dominate, resulting in a noticeable increase in infecundity, mortality, deformity and disease.

Negative morphological selection is the third variable, and the easiest to see because it is so extreme and so overt.

Negative morphological selection is simply the practice of show ring breeders and Kennel Club standard writers to positively select for negative health traits.

These negative health traits include (but are not limited to) extreme size (very small dogs or very large dogs), dwarfism, bizarre hip angulations, overly wrinkled skin, flat faces, massive heads, and the elevation of certain coat colors (such as merle) and eye colors (blue) which are linked to deafness.

Contrary to what some folks think, the history and health problems of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, the German Shepherd, the Pug, and the Rhodesian Ridgeback, to name a few of the dogs shown in the BBC special Pedigree Dogs Exposed, are not unusual -- only the degree to which they are easily visible to the naked eye.

Nor is a genetic bottle neck within a breed unusual in the Kennel Club. In fact, it is what the entire system is designed to do. Hence the name: "pure breed."

Genetic diversity is the opposite of what the Kennel Club wants -- what they want is "conformity" to a beauty show standard. Hence the name "conformation show."


Overall, The Kennel Club reports that of the 36,006 dogs surveyed, 37.4% had at least one reported health condition, and that the average age of the dogs surveyed was just five years.

Of the health problems reported, 14.4% were reproductive (Pyometra, false pregnancy, dystochia, infertility, cryptorchid, irregular heats), 12.9% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, cruciate ligament injury, hip dysplasia, patellar luxation), 10.5% were dermatologic, and 9.6 were ocular (cataract, entropion, corneal ulcer, epiphora, KCS, cherry eye, distichiasis).

And to repeat: Nearly 40 percent of dogs had one more or more health problems even though the average age of the dogs in question was only 5 years old!

Scottish Terrier - Terrier Group

• The median age at death for Scottish Terriers was 10 years and 3 months.

• More than 47.5% of deaths were from cancer.

• In a dog population with a median age of 4 years and 11 months, 46% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these conditions, 28.3% were issues or reproduction (dystochia, infertility; infertility; pyometra; agalactia; vaginitis), 15% were dermatological, and 11% were respiratory.

The Flat-coated Retriever - Gundog Group
• The median age at death for Flatcoated Retrievers was 9 years and 10 months.

• More than 54% of deaths were from cancer.

• In a dog population with a median age of 5 years, 41% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these, 15.2% were musculoskeletal (arthritis; patellar luxation; lameness, dysplasia, spondylitis), 13.1% were benign neoplasia(lipoma; histiocytoma; cysts; fibroma; granuloma), 12.0% were reproductive (false pregnancy; pyometra; irregular heat cycles; dystochia), 9.8% were dermatological, 8.3% were gastrointestinal (bloat, colitis; foreign body obstruction; pancreatitis), and 7.8% were ocular (distichiasis, goniodysgenesis, entropion, glaucoma).

Bernese Mountain Dog - Working Group
• The median age at death for Bernese Mountain Dogs was 8 years.

• More than 45% of deaths were from cancer.

• In a dog population with a median age of 4 years, 46% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these, 31.5% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, dysplasia), 13.9% were reproductive (pyometra; false pregnancy; dystochia, infertility), 9.4% were dermatological, 8.4% were gastrointestinal, and 6.4% were ocular.


Deerhound - Hound Group
• The median age at death for Deerhounds was 8 years and 8 months.

• More than 24% of deaths were from cardiac problem, with cancer accounting for an additional 18.8% of deaths.
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•
• In a dog population with a median age of 4 years and 2 months, 32% of dogs had at least one reported health condition. Of these, 17.5% were reproductive (pyometra, vaginitis, dystochia), 14.8% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, dysplasia), 13.2% were gastrointestinal (bloat, diarrhoea), and 10% were respiratory.

Border Collie - Pastoral Group

• The median age at death for Border Collies was 12 years and 3 months.
•
•
• More than 23% of deaths were from cancer. Another 9.4% were from strokes, and 6.6% from cardiac issues.

• In a dog population with a median age of 5 years, 29% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these 18.6% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, lamenes, dysplasia), 14% were reproductive (dystochia, false pregnancy, cryptorchid), 11.6% were respiratory, 8.7% were dermatological.

British Bulldog - Utility Group

• The median age at death for Bulldogs was 6 years and 3 months.

• More than 20% of deaths were from cardiac issues, with an additional 18.3% from cancer, 4.4% from respiratory failure, and 4.4% from strokes.

• In a dog population with a median age of 3 years and 1 month, 46% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these, 31.6% were ocular (cherry eye, entropion, dry eye, corneal ulcer), 15.2% were dermatological, 10.8% were reproductive (dystochia, infertility, false pregnancy, cryptorchid, pyometra), 10.4% were respiratory, 9.2% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, lameness, dysplasia, patellar luxation).


Pekingese - Toy Group

• The median age at death for Pekingese was 11 years and 5 months.

• More than 23% of deaths were from cardiac issues, and another 9% were from neurological issues.

• In a dog population with a median age of 5 years, 37% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these 20.4% were issues or reproduction (infertility; false pregnancy; cryptorchid; agalactia; eclipse; mastitis; pyometra), 13.9% were neurologic (intervertebral disc disease, deafness), 11.1% were dermatological, 10.2% were respiratory, 8.3% were ocular, and 7.4% were cardiac.

Clearly, different breeds have different health issues, but just as clearly, none of the breeds listed can be said to be problem free.

In fact, the breeds listed above, are so often fraught with problems that they would be subject to massive class action litigation and product recalls if they were a manufactured commodity.

So how does the Kennel Club get away with a business plan that guarantees that most dogs sold "with papers" will die sooner and have more expensive health conditions than most run-of-the-mill mutts?

The answer can be found in the all-absolving language to be found on The Kennel Club's web site which says that:


"The Kennel Club makes no warranty as to the quality or fitness of any puppies offered for sale and can accept no responsibility for any transaction between purchaser and vendor arising from publication of the listing."

In short, the Kennel Club offers no warranty and accepts no responsibility for the genetic wreckage you may be about to buy.

Good luck, and you're on your own.

And don't let us know if it doesn't work out!

ROTFLMAO

Now anyone interested in rambling on and on and not telling the curious public what they've done to reverse this mess??? We're all Dying to hear what you have to say.

Or you can banter on for a few pages and disappoint us again with the romantic myths taught from within that circle of friends called the dog fancy...

(SNICKER)

1. The question was posed to you.
2. Outcrossing does far more for a diminished gene pool than further researching inbred lines
3. The foundation stock is the template for future generations so to not WANT to acknowledge that is ignorance.
4. ASSuming the road to any outcrossing efforts end with a 2 dog mix is really narrow minded.
5. I have 5 lines of FCR and 4 lines of Cockers and a COI of 0% through 8 generations and 12 generations depending on the specimen and the planned pairings.
6. We are currently on an F2b part of the equation in the first phase of outcrosses.
7. The choices are being researched for other additions to the formula for a phenotype that is FCR.
8. With a goal of taking the final results as a backcross to the FCR.
9. Time being linear measure, we can only see in a few decades and compare results to the existing population of FCR.
10. And we're not eliminating a segment of healthy dogs from the equation based on COLOR.

If the trend continues... We will be far better of than what the current pool is offering. With a higher than average MHC genetic factor.

Now. Researching your lines back beyond 10, 12 or more generations can be very disappointing for you. Especially with FCR. We health test prior to the 2 year status quo and we do it to measure our progress.


Now, since none of you breed, tell us what you've done besides take the word of your sources that your dog is healthy. We're dying to hear. And again repeating in a vernacular you and your seem to understand ( chuckles)

I guess you also don't read through everything, because as posted... Conformation goes against to concept of diversity. Simmer on that concept and again tell us how you maintain health as a priority when your needs for conformation keep getting in your way.

We know how that went for the royal families.... Thus outcrossing with commoners helped them(snickers). Now tell us how a eugenics concept practiced by Hitler and now the Kennel Clubs is helping. Again we're all anxious for that twist and spin.

Now what are you doing?