Yellow Flat Coats? Controversial

I've taken great effort to make sure that my replies are taken as polite and not personal, or sarcastic, so I was surprised to see the sarcastic overtones in that paragraph about commercialism and breeding.

I have read my breed history, and have explained that I'm aware of it, so I'm not sure why you're telling me to read it again. I'm passionate about Labradors, anyone who knows me will tell you that. I'm passionate about the origin of the breed, and breeding true to that, again, anyone will tell you that. But I don't count hybridisation as a way to improve Labradors, and from what I know of FCR's, I don't think it's required, you obviously think differently, but I can't see any substantiated reasons that you have given yet.

How can hybrid vigour exist, when the very same dogs share common ancestry? It's been a point of discussion recently on a couple of other forums, that really, using an out cross to a founding breed type, may well cause as many problems as you hope to solve. Personally, I think we're better off ascertaining what we have with a breed, and using that information to breed within that gene pool, where it is sufficiently large enough. That is, of course, another point to debate.

Your mission statement isn't entirely factual, who culls yellow flat coats? No-one I know of, although they may not deem them to be suitable breeding material, personally, I do find that wrong, as I've stated previously, I believe breeding for colour isn't ethical. Closed gene pools are not necessarily unhealthy, and it keeps a breed to type, where as hybridising or outcrossing, doesn't necessarily help, these are your opinions based on generalisations that could be misleading.

None of the FCR people I know in the UK would EVER consider hybridising, it simply is not needed for this breed. Careful management and breeding plans for the future are what is needed, which is what any ethical breeder would do.

One thing I really can't understand, why, if you are so passionate about FCR's, are you producing a hybridisation that is nothing like a Flat Coat? I really can't get my head round that at all.

Yes it is. But as the colour of its coat is cosmetic, what other reason could there be, except for saying they are "rare" or "different?" Then of course they command a higher selling price.

If there are health issues related to the colour, then it would be even worse.

Mandatory Spay and neuter contracts is in fact a modern method of "culling". It is indeed extremely factual

And because the UK folks don't hybridize ... should I do the same. I just have to say.... lets see where things are in a few generations and who's looking and longer living healthier specimens.

As for your last paragraph..... consider the histories and reflect upon the occurrences of the debilitating disorders we see today relative to the same FCR breed just several decades ago. To go from a 14 to 16 year average lifespan to 7 to 9 in a relatively short amount of time. Speaks worlds about the damage done.

And again when did I mention Hybrid Vigor....

"Who said anything about hybrid vigor? Perhaps Heterosis. But thats more evidence proven conclusive in research about damaged immune systems in relation to poor MHC genetic factors. Hybrid Vigor is a myth. Maybe only proven in studies about plants. And even then its inconclusive. But when you delve into MHC factors its all about a poor immune system in response to many health issues brought about by genetic disorders caused by generations of linebreeding and inbreeding. From your Perspective Tarimoor the situation is not so dire, you are a Labrador person. As an FCR person.... the story is indeed a different one... I just choose not to fall in line with the status quo that is marching ahead on old information."

You cross breed, breed for colour and take money for pups that are not yet born..says it all

No Health issues because of color. There are however collateral damages as a result of a diminished gene pool from eliminating a segment based on color.

What? Spaying equates to culling, really??

I think we're singing from very different hymn sheets here, I think I'll leave this thread to the less than gentle informative view of others.

You mentioned breeding healtheir animals by hybridisng, that equates to hybrid vigour in mine, and many other's view. That's not only misleading, but could leave you open to prosecution.

Long story short. If you're in the habit of inviting any stranger into your home after receiving threats from some very fanatical dog people and you have 5 children then you go ahead and do so . Or if you're cautious LIKE US, You make sure you have serious inquiries only and interview them prior to your MAPPED OUT AND PLANNED PAIRINGS. If there was no plan to breed then there's no cause for asking for a deposit. If you're not a serious inquiry there's no reason to give a deposit.

And you STILL have to pass the interview process.

We've told more prospects "NO" than we've made clients.

Who said anything about hybrid vigor? Perhaps Heterosis. But thats more evidence proven conclusive in research about damaged immune systems in relation to poor MHC genetic factors. Hybrid Vigor is a myth. Maybe only proven in studies about plants. And even then its inconclusive. But when you delve into MHC factors its all about a poor immune system in response to many health issues brought about by genetic disorders caused by generations of linebreeding and inbreeding. From your Perspective Tarimoor the situation is not so dire, you are a Labrador person. As an FCR person.... the story is indeed a different one... I just choose not to fall in line with the status quo that is marching ahead on old information.

You dont need to explain yourself to me. I saw what I needed to. and if I have took that right and you are taking money off someone that might never get a pup from you its well quite frankly disgusting!

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Oh and yes 'strangers' come to our house in the view to being put on a pup waiting list, although we get to 'know' them as much as we can first! we take no deposit ever. But then we have never had threats!

Well then If we DON'T like you. You get your money back. Real easy. See how that works. And it still weeds out the serious from those poking around.

Unfortunate, but that's what its come to. Although you can always question my clients directly. There's plenty of them on our fanpage. ;-)

Most breeders take deposits for a pup they choose not to be put on a list quite odd!

No sorry I wouldnt like to questions your 'clients' shame you see them as clients.. :-(

What would you call them then? You interview them prior to adopting one of your puppies from your planned litters and accept with a legal binding contract. What do you call them? Inlaws?

I call many of them my friends. But in fact they are clients. Maybe when I give dogs away for free I'll call them fortunate recipients of a gift from me?

Personally extended family - ours are all now long life friends.. or simple the owners of our babies. Client indicates to me that you feel you are runnying business.

I think the lifelong friends thing is sort of an automatic thing, but clearly the rest is lost in semantics. The end result appears to be the same. And of course the choice of words seems to be a bit of contention. But, I do consider my clients lifelong friends with a common vested interest in seeing to a long happy life for our puppies.

And Yes TARIMOOR, Spay and Neuter is the Modern and effective equivalent of culling out a potential DNA contribution from the altered individuals. You're just not dropping the pups in a bucket anymore. You're permanently removing them from further contributing their DNA by castration and hysterectomy.

Remember now. Coming from a family of Geneticists, Medical doctors and Veterinarians..... I fire back with real bullets on this subject.

Just dont like the word clients they shouldnt be seen as such, bet your pets are stock to. Anyways as I have taken the thread a bit of topic I shall leave it now..But your doing yourself no favours here with your posts.

Their own actions discredited them already.

Is Crufts going to be televised this year? (Chuckles)