Old fashioned straight backed GSD's Controversial

Not always true about the undercoat. Both of my longcoated dogs have undercoats so, in theory, could be shown. I have no inclination to do so though!

Regarding border collies, in my area at least, that isn't the case. We have both coated and bare-skinned collies here and both work equally well in the different elements. However, interestingly, we have found that in the last litter that OH bred the bare-skinned pups/dogs were the ones who have the higher drive and are more powerful dogs, whereas the pups/dogs who had a bit more coat were still good dogs, but just not as strong.

Have to say that even though I adore the longcoats, there is a German bred standard coat male GSD in rescue at the moment who definitely has something very special about him ... if I had the room ...!

I totaly agree that you shouldnt breed for coat or anything - I must have picked up the wrong end of the stick, I thought you were saying that long coats was a fault
I havent seen a huge trend with the farmers to smooth coats - but I have never seen a working collie with quite as poofy huge a coat as many of the show dogs. It totaly makes me laugh when I see shots of people at the side of the ring brushing and brushing a collies coat, and the people here I know with show line dogs that need washed all the time - mine are only mutts but they have the correct collie coat in my mind - only needs brushed if you feel like brushing a coat - never really knots and teflon coated - I think its two years since I last washed Ben

No probs I can wait for the next bit I am really interested at what is beeing looked for

The longcoat is seen as a fault in the show ring if the dog has no undercoat.

Do the people who have asked you to judge at a WALCSS show know how you feel about non standard colours and longcoats??? ;-) ;-) ;-)

Oh yes that's why they asked me plus they also know that I will not place unsound(physically & mentally)dogs.

As there are separate classes for dogs with the correct coat(here in the UK according to the current breed standard)& those with non standard colour &/or coat length, I will simply disregard the standard for the coat/colour the class is for.

They also know that I will test the dogs soundness by gaiting at all speeds & not just a quick once round the ring.

Why do you assume that they would not know ? Especially as the organizers know me personally.

They have to have the same amount of undercoat as the normal coated dogs & if LC to LC breedings are the only breedings done, then the undercoat does fail to develop properly eventually.

As for the trend not being towards smooth BCs I'm speaking from the dogs I know & also those of friends who are shepherds or farmers with sheep, they need dogs that can work all day every day & with the mental strength to do so. This of course in in the North of England & Wales not Scotland. I've even had shepherds asking to use my Rjj as he's a smooth coat with a lot of strength, but as a CEA carrier he can only be used on DNA tested bitches

Just for info - I thought a mating between short-coated GSDs can throw up a long-coat occasionally, just as it can produce a `non-black & tan` one. Isn`t this so?

It was just a tongue in cheek comment really I would love to know how you get on, and what you think of the dogs.

Hubby's dogs also have to work a good part of the day, every day (he has over 3000 sheep) on the hill and obviously also require mental strength for this work (as do all work dogs). This power can be found in dogs who are both long or smooth coated - it is more to do with the lines the dogs are bred from imo. I also know a few shepherds and farmers and triallers in Northern England (mainly around Lancashire and Cumbria) as that is where I am originally from ;-) Is there anyone in this area you are speaking of in particular?

Has Rjj been proven on sheep now?

I know that is the case regarding coat but not sure about the non-standard colouring. I am sure someone will be along soon who knows better though

Yes they can as the long coat gene is a recessive, however the chances of any colour other than the standard colours, is minimal if the lines are bred to the breed standard. Whites, blues, livers etc are not included in most responsible breeders breeding plans. There is Rosehurst Chris who carried the dilute for blue & line breeding to him can throw up blues, but this is not intentional. Also the Longcoats from two normal coats tend not to be so heavy & of course they do have a normal undercoat. The % of non standard colours bred in Germany from SV registered dogs is so small that it isn't worth calculating(1.e. less than .000001 %)

Not all GSDs are Black & Tan, the founding colour is Grey Sable(sable being the colour pattern & not a colour) acceptable colours are in the UK are

Well this is interesting reading, how can you say that a dog is neither mentally or phisically right for shows? In my case zeus won his first progress day and achieved elementary at only 5 months old, and even the judges who normally put pups through this at around 8-12 months of age. It wasnt a show as i said before i dont show my dog it was at the training ground where i take him..And the person who told me this about him was infact a judge/trainer and vet.
Yes i have heard about WALCCS and have been to watch some of their magnificent displays and shows.
As for undercoat my boy has got an undercoat and he gets groomed regularly.

Easily, I'd say!
My dog is physically not right (too long, feminine head, too this, too that - not a good example of a male GSD) and he's not right mentally - too nervous of strangers.
I'm not a judge, but you wouldn't catch me placing him at a show .

Well you obviously don't realize that dog breed shows when judged correctly, look to compare the dogs to the breed standard"the blue print"for each breed. So if I ask for a dog to be brought to me on a loose lead & allowed to pose naturally & it backs off or tries to bite me, if I can only touch it whilst it has a choker up under it's ears & it stacked by the handler with it's tail between it's legs or it cowers away from me-that's a pretty good indication that the dog is not mentally sound. Then if it or another dog cannot gait on a loose lead around the ring holding a firm topline &/or crosses behind & towards in movement it's a pretty good indication that the dog is unsound physically. GSDs are not gaited to see which handler & dog is the fittest, but whether the dog's retains it topline & side, fore & rear movement.

The is far more to a GSD than a long glamorous coat &"straight-back"

dogs shouldnt wear a choker at shows and as for not understanding showing dogs i should of made it a bit clearer my parents used to show their dogs on a regular basis, no they wernt GSD's but who cares the things that they are looking for are still the same.
Anyway am not replying to this thread again as you are just obviously looking for an argument and as its against the rules of the forum i wont be replying.

Well you did write

& I explained how I can tell this.

How can you state

So would expect too look for the same things in a Cardiganshire Corgi as a GSD ? A CKCS & an ESS ??? That would be silly the GSD is a trotting breed, the Cardiganshire Corgi is a heeler two totally different requirements in movement & structure.

The CKCS was a companion/Woodcock flushing & retrieving breed that hunted Woodcock with the gentlemen during the day & was a companion & bedchamber vermin control during the night(they kept the mice at bay from the Ladies bedchambers)the ESS is a hunting dog pure & simple. Again totally different in size & movement & construction(the ideal size for the CKCS was to be able to be carried by a Gentleman in Waiting with it's chest in his hand & it's body supported by his arm, they also needed to be agile enough to jump from the saddle to the foot in the stirrup & then to the ground & return with the bird in the opposite direction)

The movement in breeds is not the same neither is the mental ability, a Labrador retriever is not expected to be able herd sheep all day & a Border Collie isn't expected to sit still until being sent out to bring back a bird/rabbit etc

You can judge breeds against one another if you understand the breed requirements for each breed.

I would take the last one in the black and white pic (?Fenton of Kentwood?)

Please do not insult my Dad's imported German dog The last dog in B&W is Echo Von Krappfeld

(Fenton of Kentwood is this one)

Ah but I did say I liked the last dog the best and would take him if offered. To me he seemed like the most natural and best looking dog. Fenton of Kentwood was a long time ago and I do remember admiring him in the 60's (if only for his looks).