Old fashioned straight backed GSD's Controversial

... but I thought it was the very same show people who liked to see that slope???! So the "dip" behind the withers is perhaps not good, we want a straight back, but one that slopes towards the hindquarters ONLY when in show stance? Could it be then, that they maybe are all the same when just stood like all those dogs you have pictured of old??:?

No they are not, most GSDs will have a back that slopes downwards to some degree even when in a relaxed position. Posing the animal can accentuate this.

GSD show/breeders will argue that good limb angulation of the animal requires the stifle joint to be closer to 90 degrees than the straighter limbs of the picture of the wolf and the 1910 Sieger (champion), the same goes for the shoulder joint as well.

Bearing in mind the difference is the wolf is evolutions ultimate development and the modern GSD is based on the desires and opinions of the show community as what constitutes their ideal adaptation to working dog.

Somebody else should be able to explain this a whole lot better!

I'll have the last one then please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
Ill have the one second from the bottom please.

I'll fight you for either

darn it u got there before me!! ;-) ;-)

How strange...I know nothing about the GSD but the bottom and second from bottom were the two that caught my eye

Thankyou all I am enjoying and learning lots here
Joedee, I would take the last one - lovely looking dog
Glad the roach back wobbly hocked dog isnt what the show folk are breeding for - and I now understand what you all mean about the trotting
I dont like the way the show dogs are stood, and most GSD's I see dont naturaly stand like that but I can see if they did then they might look similar
Is it just streching out so the bit under the hock (cant rem what it is called) is at right angles to the floor

I always thought of my friends dog as a straight backed but I can see there would be more of a slop if she streched out (not the best foto as she is a little huddled up and arching her back slightly here but it was her legs I was looking at)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRU8UdMnssU&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Can any of you judges have a look at the 40's champs compaired to 2000 champs - looking at them I much prefer the older dogs back end
I understand what you mean by the front end but what are judges looking for in the back?? the length of limbs and angles of joints seem much different nowadays in the show dogs in these fotos, and watching some of the dogs move in the other clip earlier in this thread (although they (to me) looke like they are handled really badly and not given a chance to walk properly) they seem to have much less muscle and are a little unstable

Well I'm surprised that you do not recognise the 2nd & 3rd as they are Ch Fenton Of Kentwood(BIS Crufts winner) & Champion Tarquin of Dawnway two of the two of the dogs to whom those who like the"old Fashioned"UK type try to breed to as is the 4th dog. All these dogs won at the highest level in their day under All rounders & the "Alsatianists"

The 5th dog is a current top winner of the Old fashioned type, way too deep in chest & too long in body. This dogs movement well I have seen this dog move & shall I say I considered ordering a jumper from the handler!

The 6th dog is an American top winner, too deep in chest, a very severe slope from withers to croup(way steeper than anything you will see in a German/International type)the rear angulation is terribly over done & like most American GSDs has very unstable hind rear movement.

The 7th dog is a UK bred dog from German lines that is a show champion & also did WT if memory serves me right. A nice moving dog with a temperament to die for. Always shown free standing & on a loose lead.

The 8th dog is the Grey twice VA2 Timo vom Berrekasten Sch H III, IPO3, FH2 Kkl 1 He was VA2 in 2001 & 2002 & TBH I prefer him to the Sieger of those years. A very strong, free moving dog, good bone, colour-well I'm biased-I consider it to be perfect, good coat My type of GSD in my fav colour. A very well constructed dog

The 9th dog is Echo Vom Krappfeld(hips 0:0=0-hip improver) Trad Black & gold German import sent to us by a friend(who sadly died only two weeks ago)as a 13 week old puppy & who sailed through quarantine & had the most wonderful temperament & character, he was shown a little, but his main role was too improve the breed here in the UK which he di, he was the sire of police dogs, show winners & obedience winners. He carried the all black gene without the white gene. He was a very sound dog, shown free standing & on a loose lead, because he was trained to do so. Correct height & proportions, very masculine head & out look. The big plus was he had perfect hips & every one of his puppies scored lower than their dams did-hence he was an improver for hips. Was PTS aged just 8 with liver cancer

I love this guy.​

Not sure what type they fall under but the type I ondly remember, and still see once in a blue moon, were large dogs with quite long and atheltic legs, broad large heads, quite a "jowelly" neck, and overall quite a heavyset yet athletic type dog. Yet nowdays there seems to be such diversity, then again its the same in other breeds, look at pomeranian's these days!

I like the last three on Joedee's post - number 7 is my fave - my last GSD looked like him.

After reading this (very interesting) post, I found myself studying Stone's movement while we were out walking today.
(Yes - I know he's pretty much everything a GSD shouldn't be )
As he is quite straight in the back, I was watching him trotting, and I can see why that would make his movement not quite as effortless as it should be.
Stone's best mate (another GSD) is much better constructed and it's amazing the difference in their gaits. He kind of floats along with quite a long reach, where as Stone is a bit more upright and takes shorter steps.

Sorry to bore you all, but it entertained me on today's walk!

The last two on Dyane's post are my sort of dog.

Years ago my sister worked at a kennel producing some very nice English showline dogs. At the time, I thought they were the bees knees. They were very good looking dogs, with great temperaments. However, I was only about 12 year old at the time. Looking back now, I cringe when I see the overly heavy chested, short legged dogs of this type of breeding.

My first shepherd came from the police and was a mix of working and show lines (mix of German and English). She was very middle of the road and had no exaggerations.

Flame is English obedience bred, and even though I like the obedience dogs, and Flame is a VERY special girl, I probably wouldn't go for this type of shepherd again. Flame has suffered with a few health issues, is very sensitive and is getting old before her time :-(

Yogi is German showlines and is absolutely everything a GSD should be in my opinion He is strong, steady of nerve and temperament, friendly but aloof, athletic (he can give our collies a run for their money) and has boundless energy and stamina. I would definitely go for this type again, or else a working line shepherd

Yogi
I love your Yogi!!!!!

Why, thank you girliebiker I will add some photos of my delicious boy for you later

Personally i prefer the look of a straight back GSD to a slope backed, to me they are all German shepherds.
Zeus is a straight backed chunky big boned GSD and if it wasnt for his 1 lazy testicle not showing an appearance we were told at training he would make an excellent show dog. But as we arnt showing him im not bothered by this at all he is however going for the chop as dont want to risk anything happening.

You've been told he would make a good breed show dog ? By whom ? He would never be placed at the Alsatian shows because he is a long coat.

He could possibly be placed at one of the WALCSS shows. depends on who was judging.

I've been asked to judge at one of their shows & I will still be applying the German Shepherd Breed Standard (disregarding the colour & coat length in some classes)so unfit & unsound(physically & mentally) dogs that are not of the correct proportions will not be being placed under me.

Joedee
As a judge I was really interested to read your discription of what you are looking from in the front end of the dog
Could you possibly explain what you are looking for in the back end?? How much variation is there - like would some of the old winners with straighter backs still place nowadays? Just based on the back ends??
Also why is the long coat a fault?? The bitch I have posted on some threads is (IMO) a stunning long coat, also living in our street is her litter sister - who is a smooth GSD
If they are naturally occuring in the same litter why is one a fault
- I have to say I much prefer the long coats, some totaly stunning dogs

Long coats that are bred solely for the length of their coats end up with no undercoat which leaves them unable to work in wet/cold weather.

No one should bred just for one aspect of the breed, like coat or colour. One should bred for the whole dog, from temperament to clinical/genetic health.

The services are moving away from long coats & over to working bred dogs(as opposed to Obedience/WT bred)

In Germany there are two separate registers now one for the(IMHO)correct coat & one for the long coated dogs.

Even in Border Collies farmers/shepherds are turning to smooth or also smooth dogs because they can operate in all weathers & conditions whereas a rough coated dogs can have problems in bad weather & also hot weather too.

Will explain re rear quarters later as I have a puppy to tattoo at Dog club tonight & I've not fed my dogs yet

And so it should I think it is unfortunate that there are a good proportion of English bred longcoats that are starting to look less and less like a true GSD and are so heavy, long and/or short-legged that they could never do the work they were originally bred for :? As much as I love the longcoated shepherd, I would never choose a dog like that and will always now go for a German/European line dog who still looks like a GSD but with a long coat if possible (well I would, except from now on I will most probably go the rescue route instead of pup).