Opinions On Crossing GSDs with NIDs Controversial

A score 3 times higher and multiple litters from said bitch, there is no justification in that. Disgraceful. Can anyone give a reason for it other than ££££££££££.

I think thats unfair to say im defending a breeder when i was merely stating facts, facts that i have and i did knowingly buy a puppy from said breeder knowing the high hip score. I have used a dog with a hip score of 25 and was slated for doing so. What the people doing the mud slinging didnt know was the hip score was a 23-2 a trauma so when i had my offspring hip scored at 12 months old and nothing came back out of the ordinary of course i wasnt surprised because i had took the time to research. Hip dysplasia CAN be hereditory but NOT show clinical signs fact of the matter is no one really knows because the genetic tests are NOT available all one can do is look at the facts. I have another rare breed the canadian eskimo dog. The club suggests dogs should be hip scored. Fine lets hip score. If we go back to basics just tell me how many eskimo people popped their dog down to the vet? The dog was bred for a purpose and half the problem is that the purpose of these dogs is misconstrued because they are not a breed they are a cross and people like the idea of a pet. There are lots of breeds that were bred to be just that a lap dog but not everyones cup of tea. Perhaps many people should be stopped from producing offspring!

Crossbreeding completely defeats the object of having a breed in the first place, natural selection would be by far a better choice (using wolf) for any breed and this was a question i asked at a genetics talk spoken by Geoff Samson who confirmed my question! Secondly careful line breeding does not cause the health problems that the general public are so keen to harp on about its the outcrossing within a breed that causes more problems. The kennel club have now put paid to further improve breeds by removing line breeding and making it impossible to register dogs from that sort of mating so another door closes. Where does that leave many breeds now?

I agree with you in part Liz there are lots of dogs being produced from parents that are young themselves and to be fair most kennel dogs will not display the traits that are seen from pet dogs because of environment. If there was no market for these dogs then they wouldnt be available fact but breeding dogs has gone on for years and if a breeder is licensed, inspected etc how can anyone judge? Its the pet breeders that cause a lot of problems too you know the romantic uninformed ones that say "oh we just want one litter from him/her" and who wants the pups? are they health tested? What you gonna do with your male once he starts peeing everywhere and being dominant? Off load it? I think that a breeder should monitor parents, grandparents, offspring etc i certainly do, i make a point of keeping or trying to keep an eye on puppies i have bred. But some people feel the dog is no longer none of your business! They bought and paid for it its theirs! Luckily i can count on one hand how many i have lost contact with or have lost due to someone inability to listen to what i tell them and most people who have my dogs are very nice people who keep me informed good or bad so i am lucky. I agree some breeders are not choosy thats obvious because there are people i wouldnt sell a dog too and i havent. I have a young male at the moment who i have taken back because the owners were suddenly finding him a handful i honestly have not had any problems with him, and i have tried a range of things with him and he has slotted in very well but i had someone enquire about him the other night and i told them he would not be suitable for them, so here he stays. End of. None of my dogs would perhaps be easy for someone else but you cant force people to listen to everything to try to tell them.

I agree on the last point, maybe some people should be stopped from producing offspring, though, last time I mentioned that, I was branded a neo Nazi. Though not on this forum btw.

I would be interested to know the breed coefficiency for the saarloos and csv x's. As I thought that the reason that crywolf and shoshone, gave for the crossbreeding was to improve diversity, but conciddering many of the dogs produced out of those kennels share the same sire or dam, it would appear not.

It doesnt matter how much you say it "can" be hereditary, it is in 80% (I think thats the figure I read might be 82%) However the FACT remains that this bitch was bred god knows how many times with a score of 42, she has also had several homes to my knowledge, just passed around and bred from. Her hip score was 21:21 which does indicate hip dysplasia of the inherited type, didnt matter though did it, breed from her anyway, flog the pups at huge prices and off we go! DISGRACE!!

I agree entirely with the highlighed bit.

Can I ask what you're implying by that? Becasue there is not a genetic test for HD (which isn't going to happen for a while, if at all, as it's highly complex and polygenic) you're going to look at the facts? The facts point to a high heritability and recommendations are that to lower hip scores, dogs with below average scores should be bred from.

If you want to look at the facts, here's a start:

http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/NSTLQK_NSTL_QK9359519.aspx

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBK-40KR3RS-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1115531675&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=11bee56bd31246fd113e325b5a36ae72

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1687006/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9018354

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBK-3XM2M0F-4&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1115513504&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4ff436487c47f391c5eb2d27ae1680d1



I doubt 'eskimo people' were breeding within a completely closed gene pool.

Using wolf in a domestic dog breeding programme is not a substitute for natural selection, if that's what you were implying within parentheses. Do you have any evidence to support the bit I've emboldened, or is it just a presumption to back up dubious breeding practices?

Guess who would have been instumental in disallowing line breeding within the KC, yep Professor Jeff Sampson, the Kennel Club's Senior Canine Geneticist! Not just "the general public harping on" eh? Maybe you should put him right?

I did highlight the maybe bit.....it is just one option that can be looked at. I honestly feel that if you are looking at a breed that is SO unhelathy you are looking at 'the best of the worst' if you like then maybe it should be time to let that breed go...or look at starting it again with a mind to improving it, hence the outcrossing idea. If this is done with healthy individuals of a similar type. I can understand if people just go and grab any breed and throw them together this is not going to be productive.

I would never agree with going back to wolves...I think this is just too unfair animals in question.

Natural selection is preety impossible to do in a domesticated situation - we try as much as possible to breed from the 'best', but it is always going to be comprimised by the fact that we are people and we have to interfer.

How can using wolf genes within a breeding program not be natural selection? Natural selection is as it is described it is the natural selection of the fittest, healthiest specimens as nature intended. If we were to be flippant with that fact then no dog breeds should be allowed to be produced as ALL breeds suffer with bad points or faults. Wolfdogs or lookalikes have no more faults but far less then some breeds but wolfdogs seem to be a popular target on dogsey and when any one of us decided to bother to take the time to reply to these tedious threads we get jumped upon! I can also tell you that Mr Sampson has HAD to do something because after that delightful tv program giving us all a behind the scenes view of several other dog breeds its the public that have kicked up about it and the kennel club HAVE to be seen making some sort of conscious effort to change the way things were going because some breeds were going way beyond health issues they were becoming useless breeds with no future as a stuffed toy let alone a dog! Mr Sampson DID quite clearly agree with the suggestion at his genetics talk. I was there so i know. May i also say i am well aware of varying dog websites on the internet that give information and some facts prove yes undoubtedly if you use low hip scores you will produce low hip scores. But you will also as with any other genetic disorder not always produce offspring with clinical signs nor pass on genetic disorder because both parents have to be carriers or show clinical signs FACT. I have had this arguement with inuit people and gave up. I know there is dwarfism within the inuit and certainly combinations of certain lines have produced this but you also get dwarfism in the GSD and the malamute so is that the combination? There is no genetic health testing for this in any other breed than the GSD so therefore makes the testing pointless on an inuit because of the difference in the genes. The problem with a health issue is if you avoid using all dogs with one issue then you could certainly be confirming the rise of an other. So humans perhaps shouldnt be playing with nature so maybe all these cross breeds (that includes all breeds that started at crosses also!) should be stopped and we should all buy ourselves a wolf! Ok perhaps not ;-)

Exactly!

First of all, I'm not targetting wolfdogs, I'm just interested in where you've got your facts. Not all inherited disorders work on simple modes of inheritance but are polygenic, so in the instance of HD, both parents do not have to be "carriers or show clinical signs" as you said. We don't know how it works so have to err on the side of caution and not breed from high scoring dogs (unless, as you say, trauma is evident).

Natural selection is natural and happens in nature. It involves traits from successful animals being passed on through reproduction and becoming more prolific in a population. Where man is involved, this is artificial selection. Neither is natural selection going on if wolves are in captivity, as the selection factors are altered by man.

Mr Sampson had already conducted a study (before The Programme!) showing how little diversity there was in pedigree dog populations. Here's a paragraph from it and a link to the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2390636/?tool=pubmed

So your suggestion that Professor Sampson was just trying to placate the public does not stand. More likely, the Kennel Club, who have been unwilling to bring in any changes re: breeding practices because of adverse pressure from breed clubs, had to do something. This meant they had to make use of their Senior Canine Geneticist.

Dwarfism exists in the Czechoslovakian wolfdog and the Saarloos as well. I did know a dwarf czech; he was a 2 year old dog the size of a pup trying to be assertive with all the other adults.

When Darwin talked about survival of the fittest he was referring to animals being the best adapted to an environment rather than 'fit' in any other sense. Any form of human intervention is simply artificial selection.

Several people have talked on this thread about Saarloos being shy. This is actually rather simplistic and the Saarloos is not simply a shy or nervous dog: it has a complex behaviour that is derived from its wolf ancestry. Essentially it is a sort of 'contained' wolf behaviour.

it is still very rare in the csv and now there is a test...so thats good!?;-)

I keep reading about this dwarfism, hand on heart, in 10 years of being involved in the NI breed, I havent heard of one case, let alone seen one, proof please?

The NIS were offered the proof and declined interest in anything whether it be dwarfism or any other regular recurring health issue. I doubt if a request for proof even with a please on the end would receive much response now!

Well i searched on the breed for 2 years before getting Ela we have now had Ela for nealry 2 years, i have met hundreds of NIs from many breeders and from both sides of the fence and know of a good many more. I know of one 2 with HD, know of 1 with addisons as a result of an op according to the owner and thats it. Hardley such an unhealthy breed is it!

Oh god wake up! You have met hundreds? There are only hundreds so i doubt you have met them all! I have been around the breed for 10 years (maybe slightly more) and i obviously havent met half as many as you!!! Every dog breed has health problems that occur FACT the facts that the breed has been crossed with 3 others breeds that all suffer with health issues highly suggests you would see this within the mix. There will always be people blinkered by what they are told but this a vexing and tedious subject that will continue until possibley the death of us all! There have been so many myths surrounding inuits its hardly a wonder most people look at an inuit with disgust and the owner. To move forwards one must first accept the issues within a breed and then show that they are being dealt with. There is lots of information from breeders and owners whom have dogs or encountered unfortunate health issues with their dogs and for you to come on here and make your broad sweeping comment makes a mockery of those people whose dogs are gone! I have visited your website and you clearly are an NIS supporter FINE but get your facts right. The northen, british inuit IS NOT the original inuit dog. The name suggests a breed much older and traceable which is the WRONG information. I have 2 PROPER inuit dogs they are Canadian Eskimo/Greenland/Qimmiq/Inuit dogs that is what they have been known by and i can assure you they look nothing like pseudo inuit dogs! Nor do they behave like them! The Northern Inuit has been about as far north as well prob scotland lol and thats only because people who live there bought them not quite the sled dog impression of trotting through the snows of alaska is it? Perhaps you should ask your breeder about the health issues that she has come across!

Mmm Addisons as a result of an op? Hows that work then?

No idea to be honest but thats what the owner said he has been told by his vet . . . I dont know the person well enough to say he was lying