The popularity of/handling wolf dog types Discussions

I spent a lot of my life reading what people actualy put in writing. The question of experience here the facts seem rather sparce.

I couldn't care less what people say about the Saarloos Wolfhonden; there are few around. Personally I think few people are able to cope with them, but then most people probably shouldn't be left in charge of a pet stone.

The look-a-likes are not necessarily easy dogs and require some degree of effort. Lets hope this weekend will offer something useful?

In my former day job, I spent 30+ years as a trainer in my particular field all the way from training part-time staff, to training at postgraduate level. One of the things that was most obvious was always that paper qualifications were meaningless unless the individual could actually do the job out in the field. I came across many individuals who were superbly qualified in social psychology, psychiatry and related fields, and who could write extremely "professional" reports and magnificent dissertations, but who were totally incapable of doing their job - they could talk the talk, but could not walk the walk.

It is not that I "don't like the association" - I have no feelings about it one way or another. My experiences of "pet behaviourists" and the experiences of others that have been related to me have been uniformly negative - hence my cynicism. If, as you say, COAPE qualifications necessitate a significant amount of assessed practical work, I can only applaud that.

Mick

Tassle on this list---who is away in Australia at the moment and also happens to be my daughter---does behaviour and training work.

She had her first dog when she was 8 and her second when she was 12, he is still with her aged 16. She competed at agility, obedience, flyball and HTM and she also has two rescue dogs as well as two more she had as pups. She did her HND in animal behavioural studies and worked then with a behaviourist and trainer in Norfolk to get more experience. She also worked as an apprentice groomer from the age of 14.

So please don't tar all behaviourists/trainers with the same brush----there are good and bad in everything and not many people twice her age have her hands on experience!

rune

The final project in the diploma is a case study and so then it's behaviour modification programme so yes I would say they are assessed on practical work, this is a behaviourists work after all isn't it?!

Are you getting confused with the term dog trainer and dog behaviorist maybe, as I think a lot of people do yet they work differently, you wouldn't pay a behaviourist to do obedience training with your dog, yet people do!

Just dipping in but I know the COAPE people generally do walk their walk

I'd suspect they are better than most at this,to be fair, apart from as someone mentioned Nicole Wilde ;-) from the US.

Wys
x

Have a look at her own website.

Thanks, I did. Theres lots about trips to yellowstone, arranging dog sledding, a bit about a rescue husky and you can rent her house but I couldn'd see anything about working with wolves and no mention at all of wolfdogs. Have I missed something?

Hi Petrina,

Am I correct in saying that CAPBT practioner candidates are assessed on videographic evidence of case studies with dogs? Their assertions of the behaviour of an animal and what they think would provide a positive outcome?

As far as im aware there is no assessment with assessor, candidate, and a dog or dogs in the same room? Is this correct?

Im not having a go, honestly, its just that I dont believe that videoing a dog and having no one on one assessment can truly be called a practical assessment-just my take. Im sure however there are many people in COAPE with lots of practical experience who then want to learn a bit more theoretically and get a qualification.

Particularly Erik Zimen, if she has been studying with him, Id grant her a bit of credit, have you not heard of him? He died in 2003 but was very well renowned in the Wolf and Dog world, especially where the two species collided.

http://www.wolfpark.org/ErikZimen.html

also...

Again stating the studies of Wolves, the house you mention was one they bought whilst studying there.

You must appreciate that most dedicated Wolf behaviourists and Dog behaviourists wouldnt dream of mixing the two together, perhaps this is why they can offer an unbiased account of behaviour. A Wolfdog is a DOG not a Wolf, its when you start messing about crossbreeding the problems start. Wolfdogs are no different to other dogs, except their breed characteristics are confined to them, just like fetching small furries out of holes are specific to Terriers.

Wolfdogs require a specific type of owner just like any other breed does, some breeders though choose to exploit this and the crossbreeding and inappropriate homing causes some of the issues we are now seeing. Thankfully in Europe, for the most part, breeders are more careful about where their dogs are homed.

Really what peer reviewed papers did she publish?

A wolfdog is a wolfdog, it is neither a wolf nor dog it is part of either. The clue is in the name.

A wolf-look-a-like dog; for example a Northern Inuit is a dog mix and therefore a dog. A wolf with even a small part of dog in it is a wolf-dog, it is not a wolf.

Eric Ziemen crossed wolves with poodles for his degree study in 1971 and created 'wolfdogs'. Half wolf and half dog.

This has nothing to do with breeding animals, so why you mention 'unbiased account of behaviour' is beyond me.

As for wolfdog breeds brought about by artificial selection; you must understand that when you create a breed you lock into it genes from the founding stock. These genes will influence the character of the animal. If the animal has a high quantity of wolf genes, it will show a high degree of wolf 'traits'. This will depend on what was selected for before the development of the breed was closed.

If this is truly the case then why have COAPE devoted an entire course to wolfdogs? Surely if there are no major differences other than breed characteristics there is little need?

Unbiased as in the woman talking at this event has studied Wolves and is currently working on the behaviour in dogs!

"Traits" are just characteristics, breed character, nothing more.

Apparently, although I havent seen it personally, there are an increasing number of worrying accounts of wolfdog and wolfdog look a like behaviour, enough to cause concern.

Some breeders have changed their websites Jon, from "hybrid" to "dog" seems strange really, many of these breeders seemed to thrive on the "hybrid" bit.

Its possible that inappropriate homing has resulted in problems with some dogs and therefore a talk has been organised to better help people who own them?

Added..
They are no different to any other high prey drive dog IMO Jon, BUT like with any dog, its paramount the RIGHT home is found, the wrong one can end in serious problems.

Oh and Wolfdogowner, if we are to believe Julie Kelham and her TV interview, the NI is in fact a Wolfdog!

Yes a trait is 'a distinguishing quality or characteristic', that would be logical wouldn't it if they shared a large part of their genetic make up they are bound to share a few of these. Of course I am sure you will argue that the only difference between a wolf and a terrier is 'character'.

Part of the problem here seems that there is no evidence that the people taking the course has ever worked with a wolf dog. There are plenty of genuine people who have worked with these animals: Nicole Wilde has even published 3 books on the subject.

Perhaps she would do a talk, maybe contacting her would be a good thing?

You are, of course, entitled to believe what you like!

Nicole is a lovely lady and has lectured in the UK a couple of times, though not about wolf-dogs as they weren't legal at the time. She also writes books about training 'dogs'.

I see what your trying to say here Borderdawn. However, if they are "no different to any other high prey drive dog" what is the point in COAPE having a specific wolfdog course. Surely they would be better having a "large breed dog" course (like the snarling GSD in their piccy ) or a "high prey drive" dog course. The argument doesnt make sense to me.

I cant speak for other people but my guys havent "attacked" me or anyone else-where are these "problem dog" statistics coming from?

Saarloos wolfdogs share many characteristics of their recent lupine breeding. As you trust the breeders in Europe maybe you should have a look on their sites. They all more or less explain what ive just said.

I agree that owners must be made fully aware of the potential difficulties in owning these dogs- as with any dog

Ill look Nicole up, she sounds well worth the effort, thanks.

Personally Jon, and this is my thoughts only, I think many owners of this "type" of dog are very unsuited to them. They see the "Wolf hybrid" bit and think, "I want one of those" there is no doubting that some owners have no clue what they are taking on, but are sold pups none the less, resulting in problems. On a few forums, there are owners really struggling with these dogs and are offered little advice, especially from the breeders from what I can see.

Id like to think that this talk could help such people understand and maybe highlight the characteristics these dogs portray. I turn down stud requests for my dogs almost on a daily basis, very few will be suitable, we were led to believe that these "Wolfdogs" were "exclusive" in their breeding circles, yet they are now popping up here, there and everywhere, widening the amount going into unsuitable homes.

There are many of these dogs in very suitable homes too of course, Im not disputing that for one moment, but Im looking at the talk as being positive, at least untill anyone knows different.