Irish Staffordshire terrier facts vrs myths Discussions

O.k,
I'm very intrigued by this type if you will,
there seems to be a parallel with this "type" in the u.k as with the apbt in the USA.
Ive heard it said they are nothing but leggy sbt,
that being said,and if that is to be believed then how come blood lines like psycho are often found within the sbt line?psycho was a cross bred dog,a battle cross correct as well as stormer.
So let me get this straight,the isbt cant be registered with the k.c,just as the apbt cannot be registered with the akc in America,even though the amstaff was founded off of apbt blood and can actually be found directly in the pedigree of akc registered amstaffs within the first few generations.
Is the isbt dog a battle cross or is it a leggier version of the staffy?Is it a mutt or a valid working/sporting type?
It seems as though the isbt is found quite commonly through out england just as the standard pet-bull or pitterstaff[apbt/amstaff cross] is found in the USA.
I'm very interested in pedigrees and photos of isbt not just psycho and stormer but others that are of performance type.Ive heard the term isbt called nothing but a puppy peddlers marketing gimmick,Ive heard it said there basically apbt with a different name to avoid b.s.l,and if i had a guess id say they were a mix of many different types of bull and terrier as well as mastiff in some cases used for a variety of reasons.
Are there reputable kennels for these dogs?
Is there a kennel club like the adba or ukc in America that registers them?
are isbt lines found commonly in sbt pedigrees?
My questions are many and thanks in advance for the answers.
Keith

i dont know what you are talking about

i think you need to explain the info better.
at the moment you are just making statements like "that being said,and if that is to be believed then how come blood lines like psycho are often found within the sbt line?psycho was a cross bred dog,a battle cross correct as well as stormer"

you need to elaborate.

btw, the irish staffy is commonly regarded as a 'pit bull type' in the uk, not a 'leggy staffie'.

I do not want to get bogged down in the literary inferiority of the post,valid questions is all i have.
Lets start out simply,
this particular type of dog is not registered with a major k.c in your country correct?
But it's lines are still found within established breeds/breed the sbt.
this is a fairly common breed of dog in the u.k correct?
If so what are some of the top lines,breeders,and what are its uses[family pet,sporting,pp etc].
Is the name Irish Staffordshire bull terrier a puppy peddlers term,a valid term?
I mean all these questions where proposed in the op.
So far ive got that the dog is a "pitbull type" dog[whatever that means,maybe like a american pitbull terrier in aesthetic,temperment drive,gameness]?
not a leggier version of the sbt,do i understand that correctly?
Is it true that lines such as psycho which where enriched with other breeds is found in todays sbt?
Thanks in advance and please reference the first post for more of my questions no matter the lack of understanding,or translation from English to American English[whatever that means].
Keith.
is the isbt the working version of the sbt,
like the bandog is the working version of the mastiff?
I believe these to be valid questions for someone to have from another part of the world.

From the research I have done Irish Staffies only popped into existance when Pitbulls were banned. I've not found any evidence that they were around before then, as a breed' so as far as I'm concerned that says an awful lot!
Becky

I'm of the same belief,although I'm not against them in anyway,b.s.l dosent work and there a prime example of its lack of efficiency.I mean the apbt problem was never a dog problem in the first place,its a people issue.
Thanks for the reply.

In th UK Pitbulls are illegal under the DDA. However, in Southern Ireland, which is not part of the UK they are legal.

What happens is that dog fighters smuggle pitbulls into the UK using Southern Ireland as a 'back door'. Hence the name Irish Staffy.

It's a term used by dog fighting gangs in the UK for a Pitbull.

sorry keith, i may have come across the wrong way

what i meant was i was interested in your questions, but simply didnt understand them

Interesting,
Since pitbull is a generic term that refers to any number of breeds either crossed together or unpapered or being of unidentifiable linage etc, that dosent seem like something that would need to be smuggled into the u.k,take a staffy ebt cross, that would classify as a pitbull but would not be the breed apbt[American pit bull terrier]which is the fighting breed.Is it safe to say apbts are being smuggled into southern Ireland and crossed into local breeds and labeled isbt?

No.
People who want pure-bred American Pit Bull terriers illegally get them in from Ireland under the alias of Irish Staffy/Red Nose Staffy. It's a back-door method. They can then hide the paperwork & claim to the authorites that they are crossbreeds, as there is no 'real' breed as irish or Rednose. If you want to know the fate of genuine cross-breeds I urge you to read about the plight of dog Bruce in Northern Ireland. Our authorities have the power to impound what is known as a PB "TYPE"... as in, anything that resembles a PBT, regardless of its ancestry, proven or not.

im curious as to what type of stock they are importing from the usa,the dog varys quite a bit in aesthetic,generally the purest forums being found in the fighting blood lines,others bred for color,size,or the show ring,in america the apbt is a very real breed but the term pit bull is a blanket statement that could mean any # of breeeds crossed together,some having no pit bull blood in them at all.
The reason i bring up cross breeding is because here in the usa,the most famous dogs from the u.k are cross bred dogs like "stormer" and "psycho" and go under the lable isbt.Im pretty sure those dogs are of the home grown varity and not the imports you speak of.

Who knows, Keith??? and that's your answer.

They're illegal here, no registering body, but I'm sure the people who go the extra mile to smuggle in these dogs know exactly what they're getting. If they are being brought in to fight then they will be the real deal, I'm sure. They can look on the internet just like you & me, find out the right kennels and get the best, just as you could if you wanted to. It would cost them a huge amount more than it would if you wanted one, that's for sure, with international import, and some are going to Ireland cheaper via kennels in Europe.

We do have 6 mths statutory rabies quarantine, and so - officially - does the Irish Republic. We also have Pet Passports applicable to rabies-free tested dogs who have had an officially recorded blood test in their own country and then had another clear test 6mths later. If the paperwork says these dogs are crossbreeds it will be ok even if they are full blooded APBTs - the authorities don't look at pedigrees or check a thing, the owners (I believe) just have to sign to certify they aren't an illegal breed.

Easy peasy who can prove they aren't if they are imported as a cross? Pit Bulls are legal in Eire so nobody will care. Once they get to Ireland of course they then suddenly start being what they were bred & born as.

There is no restriction or checking of dogs that flow between Ireland (North or South) and the UK, but as PBs are illegal in Northern Ireland and the UK, once again these dogs can conveniently become crossbreeds when necessary. That, in a nutshell, is the "back door."

I hope you do look up poor Bruce. That's what happens when a normal dog gets trapped in the current situation. It'll give you an insight into what the authorities actually DO at the moment as opposed to what they should be doing if they want to go after real PBTs.

thanxs for the reply,i will look it up if i can find it.
Since the b.s.l over there isn't working and has loop holes people and dogs jump through you'd think it would be lifted in light of a better solution.Fighting apbts in the USA are really quite rare,the majority being pets,I'm sure the situation is the same all over,as well they are harder to obtain if they are from fighting kennels,especially in the USA.
cheers.
Keith.

That, too, is quite interesting. There was a TV documentary here last year which showed how people were imorting fighting PBTs through places like Finland (where they are also illegal but hard to enforce).

But if the true fighting dogs are that rare, are these so-called Rednose and Irish staffies real PBTs and not AKC reg AmStaffs? It's not hard to find people selling Rednose and Irish... as everything is underground and unregulated, could the majority be AKC ASBTs dressed up to be what the buyer would like... in fact a scam? That's not to say though, that dog fighting does not go on here, it does, and from what I can gather real PBTs are involved.

Red nose is not actually a strain of apbt it is just a color,although there was a strain called the "old family red nose" that may or may not still exist depending on who you ask,for example just as there is apricot,fawn and brindle mastiffs,that are still the same breed.
Dog fighting in the USA is not the problem with the apbt,it is breeding for color,size and mutated aesthetic which is killing the breed with a sacrifice for temperament in the pursuit for the exotic which is actually the mutant or cripple.
Game bred dogs are hard to acquire because the humane society is on constant witch hunt to arrest and destroy as many apbts and breeders of the so called game dogs as posable,but in the end the people are released due to lack of evidence and the dogs destroyed so in the end the dogs loose.
As well game dog men do not want there blood just going anywhere and giving them a bad name for a poor performance,its a very tight community and hard to gain access to[game dogs and there inner circle].'
As for what is being imported to the UK,its hard to say,as Ive said before the most famous staffs from england tend to be born their[duke,stormer,psycho],Due to the surprisingly high amount of blue dogs[staffs]in england i tend to believe that the dogs being imported over there if infact from America are apbt/amstaff crosses such as are found in the ukc show ring and bred for aesthetic over function,some known as "show and go"or in other words a dog that can do well in the show ring but also hold its own with game dogs,lines of note would be TNT,watchdog[old stuff,new stuff is crapp],these dogs tend to be blue 90 percent of the time.In America blue dogs are very trendy and can be sold for more $ simply based on the blue diluted color.

hi keith

im still interested in these stormer and psycho references?

ive never heard of these dogs

i think you say they are in all staffies???

can you elaborate?

im interested - do you have the links?

cheers

no not in all staffys,just in some lines apparently,I'm not a expert in the staff or isbt,hence the need for this thread,but i do have photos of the dogs labeled as isbt,which are so well known here,not really that well known actually,just known as dogs that performed and were bred to do such,as the term implies form follows function,these dogs tended to be battle crosses.
this link has info on all the aforementioned dogs,also it is game dog related,i in no way support dog fighting but in the pursuit of knowledge find it imperative to frequent such sites for knowledge
[link removed/discription of dog fighting and forum in this link]

this is ch duke,pure bred sbt

this is psycho,ch fighting isbt that was given the rank of ch by sporting dog journal a usa publication that gives these ranking to pitbull terriers through out the world,now defunct due to police arrests.


psycho lost his ch title to stormer then was killed by his offspring moonshine in a accidental kennel fight
stormer,not the producer like psycho but on the given day the gamer dog.

This is what i know about the isbt,at least a few were given ranks as pure bred apbts,not due to pureness of blood but performance.

[links removed/dog fight material]

Keithcampos, I'm just wondering what is your view on dog fighting?

hello keith there is in fact a irish staff this is not a apbt as its commonly peddled to the press and gullible people lap it up there are some dogs with added ebt blood psycho only had 1/8th ebt blood some are pure red strain and then you have the flynn strain a few off these dogs went over to the usa into famous apbt yards as the americans were very impressed with them they also used to do well at the tessa mora trials in ireland in the 60s in ireland you have also got psycho strain who was the most sucessful as it managed to keep producing game dogs stormer never made it as he didnt produce game dogs due to him being a battle cross hope this helps

This is what a true irish staff is and not any old mongrel that is taller than the average staff and these were worth there feed and were proper dogs that worked and should of stayed too a select few but money talks
The Working Strains of Ireland and the UK.
In Ireland things was slightly different than in the UK as the Staffords were winning rosettes in the show ring as well as being tried out in the badger trails and pit contests, so the result was a dog of good confirmation, capable of doing its intended role to the fullest. Some of these dogs found their way to the show rings of the UK but not many would be seen prancing around the show ring. Most were kept in Ireland until the arrival of the American Pit Bull Terrier and after that the Staffords were sent to the UK in large amounts.

You might have heard the term "Irish" Staffords and how the RSPCA claim that this is just a name used for the American Pit Bull Terriers currently in the UK. Or some would say that it is a totally different breed or cross breed, but as a matter of fact there is a much simpler explanation to the name.

One of the first Strains that were imported to the UK was out of Mr. William Delaney's red line of dogs, since the man was from Dublin it would make sense that the line was nicknamed the "Dublin Red's". One of the men who imported these dogs to the UK was Mr. M. Dann of Plymouth and this line is still highly regarded among the enthusiasts of today.

Mr. P. Western, also from Plymouth imported another Strain. His imports were dogs bred by the Flynn brothers and their dogs were known as the Faranee/Evergreen Strain, which were regarded as one of the gamest strains in Ireland. These dogs are now known in the UK as the Flynn Strain, and then it is the famous or should I say infamous Northford/Psycho Strain, which basically is a splinter of the Flynn line and which has been bred almost scientifically for the purpose of the pit. With the foundation stock now in the UK a large breeding program begun which resulted in the dogs we see today.

These Strains are the main backbone to just about all the "Irish" Staffords seen in the UK today and as far as the term "Irish" Staffords goes, it is just a term used on the working strains that were developed in Ireland and later sent to the UK. It makes some sense to why the term came about when you think of it. Mr. Dann and Mr. Western would use the term on their imported stock and the term just stuck with the dogs, but these days it is being used on any Stafford, taller on the legs or when he is conforming to the Original Standard and as you know, when popularity raises the puppy sales quickly follows.

Nowadays you will find plenty of adds in the paper or on the Internet where people are offering the "old type" Staffords or "Irish" Staffords. Any blue or white dog can be peddled off as a "Northford/Psycho" bred dog and faked pedigrees are being made on a whim.
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