Gene pool sizes for european pointers Discussions

Lou as you are a first time dog owner you will have these sorts of training problems.
It helps if the dog respects you and you stick with one training method and not over do it so not to cause confusion to the dog, as I found out 20 years ago when I had my first HPR.

Always remember only a “Bad Tradesman Blames His Tools”
You wanted an unbiased opinion on the Slovak breed, I have never bred dogs & don’t intend to. I consider these dogs to be a healthy breed & contain no hereditary problems that I’m concerned about. Otherwise I would not have just purchased my second Slovak.

All breeds of dogs will crop up with the odd bad mouth along the way, the same as wolves & people but this is not life threatening & this can be checked at the time of purchase, also it is one of the easiest things to breed out.
As for temperament I have never met a friendlier, biddable breed of dog with also such ease to train.

The Lab is not bred for generations to be by your side, like all dogs it has to be trained by the owners, they are not born trained.
Yes the HPR, s are a dog that quarter but can be trained to walk to heal by someone that knows what they are doing.

I hope people will use their own judgment on picking a breed of dog & not be put off by your misinformation; anybody would think you wanted the breed to die out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hi lou,
i considered you as a friend,but there comes a point in which i have to stand up for a breed i feel passionate about.when people ask for health advise on these forums they are talking about hereditary problems and not the sort scare mongering you are coming up with [ maggie has cut the same frount paw 3 times it do not make it a fault with the breed just bad luck ]

Hi Ros,

I feel the same. I don't know why you think I'm scaremongering. The teeth issue it clearly down to breeding and is hereditary this is yet to be adressed in the UK stock. I listed eyes, not as an issue that is serious within the breed, but because it isn't on the breed club health list. I think it's entirely relevant to know where this list has come from.

You said health issues had been covered in the recent newsletter, which indicates that this is ok. I disagree as it doesn't contain all the known health issues that have been communicated to the breed club.

I listed the infections as something that are clearly not to do with hereditary breeding. It's an infection nothing to do with genetics.

I'm unsure where you think I've mentioned none hereditary issues and made them out to be so.

The issue to me is do we think there is a wide enough gene pool in the UK stock moving forwards and are health issues being addressed. I was told issues to do with my dog were down to the breed in general when they turned out not to be. If I had known I could have made an informed choice.


Lou

lou you talk about not having a wide enough gene pool, but then you are against using a imported stud dog because less than 2% of his pups have had a bite problem, as you said we have to move forwards and he gave the breed the new blood it needed sometimes in life you have to weigh up the pros and cons, .
you state the news letter do'es not contain all the known heath issues,what hereditary health issues are they not telling us about lou because i've researched into the breed, the email about health problems you have sent me and they have ended up being infections , and then you mentioned how worried we all were about the poodle pointer that was put into the breed over 8 years ago no was not worried as I read the email differently to you, I read his broken english to mean the pups did not have the desired depth or chest or the spring of rib that is needed in a good working gundog for maximum lung capacity, and not chest and lung problems as you read it. as for the cross eyed more than one of the breeds that are in the slovak has this crop up now and again i've seen many cross eyed weimaraners in my time so far i've only heard of 1 slovak so thats good as far as im concerned, and I really dont want to be nasty but one of the biggest problems I can see in this breed at the moment is you as if any one shows any intrest in them you are there making them run for the hills with all your so called health problems maybe you should look into health issues in other breeds then you will see how lucky we are the own something so healthy as a slovak, i think your gripe with the breed ,boils down to your dissatisfaction with your breeder and the problems you are having with basic training ,but you do tend to try and run before you can walk,on your blog I noticed you were thinking of you and grey taking up an activity best idea i've heard, I think you would both enjoy agility and you could channel both of your energies into it and maybe learn to appreciate the lovely dog you have just losen up lou and enjoy your life with grey as it goes so quickly

I'm against the problems of that 2% being downplayed as someone who's dog had to have extensive treatment, it wasn't as simple as having a couple of teeth out. The reason why I started looking into the breed more closely was because at point of sale I was told that slovaks get their teeth late. This is the reason I contacted others in the breed abroad to see.

Do we think it's great to only use the same 2 stud dogs in the UK? If we're at the beginning of a breed, perhaps problems like the bite fault can be addressed at this early stage.

What I'm saying is that the newsletter makes a statement that claims to be the definitive list of the health issues they as the club know about. But in fact, they have missed off the list cases from real dogs that were sent to them. Not information from slovakia. People's dogs in the UK and not all from the same breeder.

This section was to do with investigating the claim from a UK breeder than campylobacter was a breed specific condition. I don't think it is. I haven't said that it is a hereditary condition. However 5 puppies from the same place have turned up with it.

I don't recall saying you were worried about the crossed in poodlepointer. Your dog isn't related I think?

Quite possible that you interpret the information differently to me.

There were two that I know of. One bitch put up for sale by a breeder about 6 months ago and a dog that is older. My only reason to list it is that the newsletter omits it from their definitive list.

I think that is silly. People make their own minds up when buying a dog. I'm interested in the breed of dog that I have. If people want to show how great their breeding programmes are, how well the raise puppies and how healthy and the dogs are great.

with all due respect, Ros, you have an older dog than mine from different breeding from the time before the numbers increased and one without problem conditions. Grey's teeth really are a mess and everyone that has seen them says they haven't seen as bad for a long time. I think it pretty off that you decided to talk to me about this on the forum, but hey. I live and learn.

I don't have a gripe with the breed in particular. I have a problem with conditions being misrepresented and played down when they do occur. I'm sure for those 2% and we don't know the true figures, that the problems are very real and have more of an effect than financial. Injuries and pain do cause real problems to animals as does lack of early socialisation. Breeders where they have so many dogs they don't know how to look after all of them or even get to know their characters for example, perhaps turn out a different dog than one raised in a smaller home setup. But most people don't know me and there are now hundreds of slovaks so most people don't read this little forum thread.

Thanks for the advice on my training. You haven't met me or my dog.

I'm very sad to see you making this so personal. After all that we discussed. Our hopes for a healthy breed and carefully nurtured healthy loved puppies.

Thanks Dawn. I'm working through things with Grey as I'm sure you did with your dogs. Every dog is different. We've had to deal with Grey being reactive to traffic, which I'm sure you can imagine is quite stressful in a big dog. But he's much more relaxed now.

I'm sure you know enough to look in their mouths properly and I know other people now who check very carefully. I've not heard yet if the advice has been passed on via the breed club or the breeder about the treatment options for the percentage of dogs that have got a bite problem like Grey's. At the least people should be offered these dogs not at full price and full responsibility taken for their treatment.

Perhaps you would feel differently if your dog had a genetic problem like this. Perhaps if I had known to look better at a bite then I would have chosen differently. But then what would have happened to him? And as the dentist has said to me last week, in these cases prevention is better than cure and a chance to be solved in still small numbers.

But it is painful when it does ocur. And how best to treat it? When someone who is inexperienced is buying a dog with a clear bite fault perhaps they should be given the correct information and not told that the problems are down to the breed. In fact isn't this worse? That a breeder tells someone that slovaks in general get their teeth late? Do they? And have the problems that have shown up been bred out? So far the teeth problems have shown up in the 2 stud dogs but also the 2 bitches from the UK kennels. They're still being bred from and I can't see how the breeding programme has been changed. But perhaps you know.

I'm really glad to hear that. That is great news for the breed. I also met lovely slovaks at the fun day and apart from one, all were nice dogs. I have also got friends who know of older generation slovaks that were more grumbly, but I've not met them. I've never purported to know adult dogs as I can only say I've known my dog and he's only 14 months old. So it is a mystery how he will turn out.

Really? I thought that labs were retreivers and as such work much closer to the handler.

That's great. I'm glad to hear it. I live in hope.

Which misinformation are you referring to?
I think people will always make their own minds up. They can go and check out breeders. See how big or small an operation they are. Check to see how the puppies are raised. Ask questions on what socialisation they get etc. They can speak to people in HPR circles also for their opinions on breeders.

Right then ...

Thanks all of you for the very passionalte, heartfelt comments. Can I suggest that we take a rain chekc on further SRHP comments on this thread - from what I can gather the situation is this:

If you have a healthy dog, from healthy stock, it'll do fine.

Because of the small gene pool, there are some lines that have hereditary probs that show up more often than in other breeds with a wider spread of breed stock...

Older SRHPs, who predate the breed's surge in popularity seem less prome to problems than younger dogs.

As for the rest: There doesn't seem to be any need for you all to get so defensive!

Now ... does anyone have anything to say about any of the other breeds on my list (braced for a storm!)

thanks!

Well, I had a nice long walk this evening with Grey. Consequently I had a long think about today's posts. I think everyone is entitled to post about their dog, its health and their experience of buying a puppy. It's been an amazing 12 months with Grey in my life and I wouldn't swap him. But I can't get away from the fact that he was very poorly for much of the time.

You only have to look back through the slovak thread on this site to see there were a number of puppies with really bad runs and then testing positive for infections. I have counted 4 SRHPs with campylobacter from the same place (that's 3 from the same litter, one from 6 months younger). I also know of a weim with it from the same place a year older. Coincidence? Then how is this dealt with? My vet said to notify so that everyone the dog came into contact with could be tested. But to date, not one person I spoke to was informed.

But I have to say again I have never said this was genetic. But it does cause problems to young puppies. Grey nearly died at 9 weeks old because of it. He was then kept from puppy classes while undergoing treatment following fecal tests. Obviously this affects socialisation. Then straight onto treatment for months with his teeth. 4 ops, wearing the brace and it's removal.

So perhaps people might think again before accusing me of not approaching his training correctly when you bear in mind he is a big male dog, and had a lot of early trauma. When you are dealing with females they have a much lighter weight ratio and depending on where you live the urgency of lead training is variable. ANd at the end of the day all dogs are different.

I know some of the slovaks are pullers because of attending the fun day and also through chats via here. I believe Ros has a puller in maggie? I'm sure it was said she had worn off a bit of fur with the halti. So perhaps I'm not doing too badly. We have had an improvement the last two weeks as we have been working on the flat collar. I'm trying to get him to wear a headcollar as little as possible.

I think Grey is a quick learner, but he is also extremely stimulated by the environment outside. This could of course be great for him working, if we manage to harness it. Part of this will come with maturity. Let's not forget he's a baby. Just a big one.

I've held back much over the last 12 months. I've not published the slovakian information, instead I sent it to people within the breed here for their opinion and point of view. I've refrained from really complaining about how I have been treated. But I do feel I owe it to Grey to not allow anyone to belittle the problems he had wrong with him. If anything has come from this discussion today, people will read it and hopefully buy a slovak carefully. it's a precious purchase buying a puppy.

I'm obviously sad that people chose to go for me personally for expressing my opinion on my dog and how his condition has been written up in the health statement. People are welcome to their own opinion and I don't begrudge them for it. If anything though we have had more of a debate today than otherwise. People know themselves what they have expressed in private about breeders and other owners. But that's that. I do have fun with my dog. I lead a busy life and I take an interest in the breed and general issues surrounding health and welfare. I would hope that the matter of the issues that have shown up in some of the litters is taken seriously because of the affect it has on those affected.

There are GWP pups about but if you are looking at purchasing from kennels such as Bareve, Kimmax or Bryantscroft for example then I figure you would have to go on a waiting list. All 3 kennels mentioned work their dogs as well as show them so you get the best of both worlds, the former 2 kennels doing particularly well in the show ring.

You could purchase a GWP pup from a falconer, gamekeeper etc but the health checks may not be present.

My GWPxSRHP is a proper character. He loves people but saves his attentions mainly for me and would live in my pocket if he could. He's fine with other dogs but prefers them at a distance and gets quite grumpy if they outstay their 5 second welcome.

Compared to may other breeds, they are fairly healthy as they aren't that common if you put their numbers against the GSP.

Since the Slovak is a relatively new breed I would like to see new dogs developed as they were originally developed. Maybe bring in more Weim blood (and not from the Weims I tend to see around which are, quite frankly, nasty pieces of work...maybe a result of overpopularity and overbreeding by joe public?)

thanks for the ideas leanne.

I don't mind the idea of a waiting list - in fact I'm on a waiting list at home until I can get a dog - at least 12-18 more months!

How much might one expect to pay from a breeder like Bareve, Kimmax or Bryantscroft for a GWP?

thanks

hi misterphil,
sorry to see you have been put of the slovak but so be it,
i thought i would just set you straight on your comments
about the SRHPs the only hereditary problem that has
cropped up it the breed so far its a few bad bites which in my opinion is good going as its not life threatning and can be checked before you buy one,as for older stock being healthier my bitch is 8 mths older than lou,s but is of newer breeding as greys father is magies grandfather and the dams sibling is maggies grandmother,the only reason there was a bit of a surge in breeding was the 2 import stud dog,as whithout them breeding could not have continued.
which ever the breed you choose look into health issues and the best of luck ros

Blimey, i'm not entirely sure how much they would cost. Last time I looked, pups from less successful kennels were around £700. The lady who owns the brother to my pointer also has a full GWP. She obtained him from a falconer for £300 but he has no papers. I suppose you get what you pay for at the end of the day but I would expect to pay upwards of £700 for a well bred specimen.