What other wolf crosses have their been Discussions

So what? The fact remains is you have the equivalent of a wolf cross in the cat world. A fact which I have not a jot of a problem with ... hybrid vigour is to be encouraged. However, it is YOU who have the problem with wolf crosses ... you have always made it very apparent that you do not "approve" of them ... and yet you have a Bengal Tiger Cat. I just find that very strange ... nay, even hypocritical.

Whilst there are dog snobs in the world of show dogs in the main they are individuals. I have never come across a breed (or in this instance sort of type) where the vast majority of them seem to think they own something different and better than any other breed!

This, to me, is a problem. We aren't talking about different breeders having come up with the same 'idea' and gone about it individually to create their breed, we are talking about the same dogs and dogs in all of the 'breeds' have the same dogs in their ancestry simply because x fell out with y who then fell out with w and z!

Ever thought that some of those people with crosses don't value their dogs as much and don't go to the vet. Remember the longest lived dogs (according to one survey) were pure breeds with an average lifespan of over 15 years, that's average lifespan which means many will be a lot older!

It is breeders who are responsible for breeding unhealthy dogs not the KC! You should read the rule book, unfortunately some of the people at the top of the KC are also those that shouldn't be there!

Have you actually looked at the pedigrees of these dogs? I've been sent many and they are mother to son, father to daughter matings all the way down the line, especially from some kennels who seem to have practiced this for generations.
Not having KC recognition has NOT prevented the dogs from being far too closely inbred!
Becky

"Have you actually looked at the pedigrees of these dogs? I've been sent many and they are mother to son, father to daughter matings all the way down the line, especially from some kennels who seem to have practiced this for generations.
Not having KC recognition has NOT prevented the dogs from being far too closely inbred!"

I agree Becky, totally wrong and irresponsible if true ... but no worse than in the pedigree world. Looking at my GSP's pedigree, there is far too much inbreeding for my liking.

Whether it be in pedigrees, or mongrels, inbreeding IMO is just plain wrong. However, particularly concerning the Northern Inuit, most of the so-called pedigrees have been extremely dodgy to say the least, and probably totally inaccurate, so a case of you can't believe all you read!

As far as the vet/insurance thing goes, with insurance being far cheaper for crossbreeds, I don't follow your point at all. Pedigree owners are, if anything, far more likely in principle to take their dog to the vet simply because of the money they have invested in the purchase, or the value of the dog as breeding stock, and possibly far more likely to insure their dog as a consequence. Whether that be true or not, the simple facts of the matter are that the underwriters for insurance companies know what they are doing because they work on the statistics that are provided by vets, and the facts are that crossbreeds from a statistical point of view "go wrong" far less often than pedigrees do. That's what the statistics say, and that's what the insurance underwriters base their quotes on.

I cannot remember how much it costs me to insure Tai per year, but it is something in the region of £100 - £150 I believe, although I would have to check with OH. We tend to change each year at the time of renewal because you get the best deal this way it would seem.

To give an example, once we had Hal on the BARF diet at the age of 5 I think it was, from that moment on until he was 9 we never went anywhere near our vet ... such that when I emailed her to ask her if it was OK to use a 9 year old as a stud, I reminded her in the email who Hal was because it had been a good 3 years since we had seen her and she might have forgotten. Her reply was an absolute classic : "How on earth could I ever forget Hal !! "

I know someone who had a Pomeranian that lived well into its 20's. The smaller the dog, the longer they tend to live, a bit like us humans, but nonetheless that is an exceptional age for ANY dog, large or small, pedigree or mongrel.

I did make this point before but it has come to light a lot more since I did----the people selling these dogs HAVE to say they are different in order to charge what they do for them.

I have looked at a few more websites and several have rosettes and trophy's shown for 'best of breed' or best in show'. To the casual person this makes out that they are even more special and will be able to be shown and are recognised as a breed. They don't understand that the show will be a little fun/exemption show or a show consisting of a lot of the same crossbred dogs. Three years ago they were proclaiming that the KC was about to accept the breed, some people on a forum who had bought dogs were expecting it to happen daily. They were being conned bigtime.

It is the dishonesty of it I don't like. No one likes to admit they were conned. However nice the dogs are---and personally I really like the look, and in the main the temperament, of them.

rune

(to Gnasher)

Have you got a GSP now? Are you saying he has health problems? Only I`ve found GSPs, as working dogs, really healthy.

I had a dog 3 years ago who was 15 at the time, I still have him! I think he aiming to outlive all of us.

rune

My dogs are fed on a commercial diet and some of them have NEVER been to a vet other than for vaccination or when they are pregnant! Percy has only ever been for injury but hasn't been to a vet for 6 years, Wilson only for vaccination, Cooper never, Parker, never, Dolly, Terra and Oscar never and Liberty and Ellie only when pregnant.
All of them pedigrees all fed on a commercial diet. Just plain and simply healthy dogs.
Becky

Gnasher sighs. Rune, we say they are different simply because they are so I owned one of the original "Eddie Harrison" dogs and he was as alike to, say, a collie or a lab, as chalk is to cheese. You can argue all you like with this point, but facts are facts. You will have to take my word for it of course.

It is made obvious and clear to anyone with half a brain quite frankly that these Utonagan, Northern Inuit, whatever, shows are fun shows. I have attended two or three myself, and they were just that ... jolly good fun, with everyone having a good time, everyone casually dressed and not faffing and fart arsing around primping and poncing up their dogs, just taking them into whichever classes they choose without any fuss or bother.

I agree with you though about KC registration though, that was and never is ever going to happen in a million years - thank God - and it was very wrong if any breeder ever misled any purchaser over this point. Not that it should make any difference though, you either love this particular type or you don't. If you are the sort of person who only wants a dog if it can be KC registered, then I would say you are probably not the right sort of person for a wolf cross or even a wolf look-alike.

No need to get all fluffy Becky ! I never said otherwise, I just said that since we put Hal onto the BARF diet, we never went anywhere near the vet for a good 3 years - it was actually over 4, I am told by hubby. I was not insinuating anything special here about the BARF diet, because this thread is not about diet, it is about wolf crosses.

No, I have already said it was way back - blimey, it is 30 years ago odd that I bred from Lizzie. She died in 1987. We live next door to a GSP, and he is a superb picture of health. I am no longer "into" the breed, but they all look pretty healthy to me. We met a bitch heavily in season a few months back who came bounding down the road to where Tai and I were gathering firewood, and I had to haul him off her - her owner said she was 12 I think, and she was the picture of health and extremely oversexed !!

As mentioned before....you have obviously never met any of my dogs and so can delude yourself that your dogs are SO special...I know mine are much more so!
(As you roll your eyes - so I roll mine...)

But its not.....the GP who will not be clued up on the dog world will have no idea....it is different for you or I as we understand.

I don't think it matters to 95% of the people on here whether thier dogs are KC registered or not. In some cases it is the only way they can enjoy certain aspects of thier dog - but i am equally sure that if there was no KC, those people would still love and adore thier dogs for being so special

i thought Eddie Harrison had wolf crosses---or have I got the wrong Eddie Harrison? She lived locally to a friend at the time. Ready to be wrong on this ---if I am I apologise but her originals were wolf bred and she was happy to say they were.

IMO my collie and the lab are as like as chalk and cheese and my GSD was sure as hell nowhere near the same as my Gordon Setter!

However if you are comparing a wolf hybrid (which you did if it was that Eddie), with a dog then yes I would say they are very different, we have a feral spaniel cross who does not behave as a 'normal' dog might.

You are right not to want KC interference but I do feel that the general public is being misled by some sites and some breeders, rosettes are great but they should be explained and they aren't.

rune

As usual Tassle you hit the nail on the head ! Everyone thinks their dogs are special of course ... the difference is that I KNOW that mine were and are !!!

BTW---if you were suggesting I might not be the right owner because I want a KC registered dog then I suggest you check my details (G)!

I sort of assumed you were talking generally when you said that but not sure.

rune

Eddie was the "founder" of the wolf cross (although there were one or two others, she was the main force). She lived at Dunham on Trent, bless her she is no longer with us. At one time she was perfectly happy to say what her dogs were, but following JK's court case, she became very cautious about who she spoke to, etc. etc. It is a massively long story and I cannot go into it now as I am getting ready to go out on a bike ride with Tai. I bought my Hal from her about 12 years ago, he was a wolf cross.

I have a lot more to say about the feral spaniel etc, but I am being nagged so I have to go, but I will catch up with you later.

Can I just suggest to Borderyawn especially that before you form opinions you look at the information given on the web site as it DOES explain where the dogs started, why they have been renamed, what has happened etc etc....seems to me its the same old arguements all the time...There is a new breed in the making, the owners and breeders have their own registrations, shows, stud books etc (as required by KC prior to recognition) also every single person that ever comes looking for a Ute or B Ute is told exactly whats going on and I have to say most of which find the whole thing exciting and want to be involved.

DAwn I asked you to have a good look at the web site and forum and all will be revealed but your flawed research seems to gleen over the top looking for flaws in our passion??

Yes there has been epileptic dogs produced as with other defects, all now documented, and bred away from as would any ethical breeders in any breed, have you looked up some of the genetic defects in some pedigrees??? try the Newfoundland for starters....Boxers etc etc. The British Utes are tested more than most pedigrees, not because the KC say so, because we want to create a breed that is healthier than the pedigrees that have been trashed, we also want the gene pool to always remain open and that is our stipulation to the KC, as WE beleive in the dogs health FIRST, not type and not recognition...KC recognition is needed for 2 big reasons
1: so as there is 1 reg board and in the future there will be no more splits once the breed is established,
2: so as we dont have to face this constant barage of "my breeds better than yours"

By the way Rune, wether the shows are KC or not, the dogs are still judged under KC rules, they are still judged on the breed standard, they are still good examples of the breed. What is the point you are trying to make.....???

All owners are fully aware of the fact it wont count toward a CC or going to Crufts?? They are breed shows, wether you think that or not is frankly irrellevant...It is for breeders of these dogs to see their progeny mature, to find suitable mates, to keep in touch with pup owners in a more sociable environment and most importantly to have fun with their dogs!

AND, all owners are informed that we have started again with regards lines, records etc etc and KC is at least 5-10 years away and probably a lot longer. But they all are working towards it as this is how we reach the common goal to keep all dogs together.

There are lots of breeds I see that are very similar too IMO
, shih-tzu/Lhasa
Poodle/Bichon
Jack russel/parson terrier
and the list goes on
why werent they all lumped together?? Oh yes because all the lines were different and the input of outcrosses different also. Wether you think they all look the same or not, each faction will fully furnish any enquirer of the differences in the breeds or crosses or whatever you feel comfortable calling them. Personally when talking of them I know what dogs they are talking about by the name they have been given, but then again I am more involved.

edited to add:
Dawn I listed breeders who health test all their stock now, if you have studied so much you should know who they are, it doesnt really matter the point made was YES there are more than 10 breeders that health test their stock...yet not one of the "dissers" have said, thank god, thats good, its about time opr anything....no just Oh I think one of them produced an epileptic dog, I better go check??!!

I have yet to meet a breeder that at some time in their life hasnt had a single problem, its not the problems its how they are dealt with thats important, and considering the attitudes in here I would have thught the fact that all this testing is being done you would be happier....but no you go away and ry and find another point to contend with??!!

<<<By the way Rune, wether the shows are KC or not, the dogs are still judged under KC rules, they are still judged on the breed standard, they are still good examples of the breed. What is the point you are trying to make.....???

All owners are fully aware of the fact it wont count toward a CC or going to Crufts?? They are breed shows, wether you think that or not is frankly irrellevant...It is for breeders of these dogs to see their progeny mature, to find suitable mates, to keep in touch with pup owners in a more sociable environment and most importantly to have fun with their dogs!

AND, all owners are informed that we have started again with regards lines, records etc etc and KC is at least 5-10 years away and probably a lot longer. But they all are working towards it as this is how we reach the common goal to keep all dogs together.>>>>

The point I am making as they they are not breed shows---they are same sort of crossbreed shows----as are lurcher shows. That isn't a problem in itself but you have just said yourself they are 'judged under KC rules'----they aren't, they are judged under your societies rules. That sort of statement misleads people.

The rosettes and cups shown on the web sites are misleading as well.

What grounds have you got to think the KC is 5/10 years away? Why do you want KC recognition?

rune

So you are saying you know who the parents of Hal were. Don't make me laugh you didn't even know the correct name of the dam because in your own words 'you couldn't read your own writing' so I take it you didn't get a pedigree for him then? Did you get to see his parents then?

My horrible lot.

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